Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear • Hacker News Board

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#251

Post by Ductapemaster » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 11:28 PM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #49

paloaltokid wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the more reason to not give the police even more powerful tools with which to brutalize people. If the equipment is not the problem, take it away. That's one less thing to worry about.

This isn't true. Modern tools are significantly less lethal, and give police more options on the spectrum of escalation before having to draw their service pistol. This is why protests were much more deadly in the 1970s.

I would argue that "less lethal" tools are used more often, and in cases in which the lethal option would be completely unnecessary. This has the effect of increasing the lethality of these engagements. For example, using a taser during a traffic stop. Using tools like tasers lowers the bar to using the tool in the first place, rather than reducing risk to the receiving party. False logic at the end of the day.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#252

Post by syshum » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 11:40 PM UTC

pmorici wrote: post #90

syshum wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are police officers being paid Minimum Wage? In my city a 1st year officer makes about 15-20% more than the median HOUSEHOLD income for the city. (most Households are 2 income at least). That is base income not factoring in Shift Premiums, Overtime, and various other income they earn So I would love to know what city you are referring to where cops are being paid the minimum wage

No where, I said 'slightly above starting out'. For example in Baltimore where they have a $15 minimum wage (~31k /yr) the advertised starting salary for a police officer is something like $35-38k while they are in training which as far as I can tell lasts for 6-12 months that gets bumped up to ~$53k and after several years you can take some kind of test to become a supervisor where you make up to low six figures. A…

So are you advocating we charge police officers $100-300K for their training as well?

They get paid a reasonable salary to be trained in a job that will provide them a nice income for the rest of their life. Having a lower salary while in training is not unheard of in any field, I am not sure why you believe those numbers are unacceptable.

Further Baltimore shows why a national $15 min wage is untenable, as all that does is make more jobs "minimum wage jobs" because taking the min wage from $8 to $15 does not magically mean all the jobs that paid $15 now pay $22, that is not how economics work

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#253

Post by webmaven » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 11:40 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #69

inerte wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No when life gives you lemons, there is no need for whataboutism. Let’s keep pressuring and working to get to training and accountability too.

This comment breaks the site guidelines against calling names in arguments ("whataboutism"). Please don't do that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Is that actually name-calling? It's a description of a comment (or a argument), not of a person.

I mean, if it is, then so would calling out someone's comment as an ad-hominem, right.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#254

Post by ta17711771 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 11:41 PM UTC

Leherenn wrote: post #162

chrisseaton wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's be great if the police in the US had a more consistent uniform. If I go from one town to another in the US the police could look completely different. How are you supposed to be able to tell a police officer from a private security guard there?

Aren't a lot of private security guards just off duty officers?

Correct, and in that case, they regularly wear POLICE insignia

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#255

Post by mcguire » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 11:42 PM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #246

namelessoracle wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having gone through police training in another life, you are absolutely correct. I think it's deeper than just what you wear, it's the attitude of the higher ups and overall culture. The leadership team for police that wants you dressing all paramilitary and in all black is going to have a focus on you acting a different way during training and in what your day to day is like than the other group. There's also the br…

This is important to introduce into the discussion. I have felt that in the vast majority of controversial police shootings, especially in the mistaken identity cases, they were likely the result of a hair-trigger reflex and being on high alert, with your conditioning telling you that if an adversary either gets the jump on you or even gets into a strategically advantageous position, today is the day that you are goi…

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2017/02/14/...

"Fittingly, the most chilling scene in the movie doesn’t take place on a city street, or at a protest, or during a drug raid. It takes place in a conference room. It’s from a police training conference with Dave Grossman, one of the most prolific police trainers in the country. Grossman’s classes teach officers to be less hesitant to use lethal force, urge them to be willing to do it more quickly and teach them how to adopt the mentality of a warrior. ... In the class recorded for “Do Not Resist,” Grossman at one point tells his students that the sex they have after they kill another human being will be the best sex of their lives. The room chuckles. But he’s clearly serious. “Both partners are very invested in some very intense sex,” he says. “There’s not a whole lot of perks that come with this job. You find one, relax and enjoy it.”"

1. You do what you train to do.

2. What you look for in the world is what you will find.

3. Police work is risky, but not excessively so. https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfar0020.pdf

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#256

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 11:42 PM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #246

namelessoracle wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having gone through police training in another life, you are absolutely correct. I think it's deeper than just what you wear, it's the attitude of the higher ups and overall culture. The leadership team for police that wants you dressing all paramilitary and in all black is going to have a focus on you acting a different way during training and in what your day to day is like than the other group. There's also the br…

This is important to introduce into the discussion. I have felt that in the vast majority of controversial police shootings, especially in the mistaken identity cases, they were likely the result of a hair-trigger reflex and being on high alert, with your conditioning telling you that if an adversary either gets the jump on you or even gets into a strategically advantageous position, today is the day that you are goi…

[deleted]

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#257

Post by ta17711771 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 11:43 PM UTC

bananabreakfast wrote: post #225

tsss wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a cop is actually a very safe job. I'd bet that your chance of being shot as a cashier at subway is higher than as a cop.

This is super disingenuous and very unfair to cops. Cashiers do not have to approach dangerous people who do not want to be approached. If they get held up they give the cash and they're good. In cities cops are often targeted to be killed since it could be the difference between life in jail and going free.

I have no strong position in this argument, but, robberies and other armed crimes are regularly paired with a murder in order to get rid of the witness.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#258

Post by joshuamorton » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 11:44 PM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #246

namelessoracle wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having gone through police training in another life, you are absolutely correct. I think it's deeper than just what you wear, it's the attitude of the higher ups and overall culture. The leadership team for police that wants you dressing all paramilitary and in all black is going to have a focus on you acting a different way during training and in what your day to day is like than the other group. There's also the br…

This is important to introduce into the discussion. I have felt that in the vast majority of controversial police shootings, especially in the mistaken identity cases, they were likely the result of a hair-trigger reflex and being on high alert, with your conditioning telling you that if an adversary either gets the jump on you or even gets into a strategically advantageous position, today is the day that you are goi…

> It is not acceptable to have a non-zero casualty rate

Systems have both false positives and false negatives. A system with no false positives but many false negatives can be worse than a system with few false negatives and few false positives.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#259

Post by stuaxo » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 11:44 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #197

stdbrouw wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The police need to push cars to the side of the road on, I'd venture, a daily basis. In what kind of weird and twisted world do police officers need to push cars to the side on a daily basis?

Literally any accident where stopped traffic can be more dangerous than slow-moving traffic (such as any highway). It's really not a strange concept and it's weird to me that you can't comprehend a first responder having a need to move a large, heavy, immobilized object.

Seems pretty weird from the UK POV that they would do it with the car, pretty sure that's not what happens here ?

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#260

Post by mcguire » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 11:46 PM UTC

bdcravens wrote: post #211

pc86 wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is going to be very dependent on location. I've commuted on various 20-40 mile stretches of highway for the past decade and it's rare to see debris for more than a day or two before someone cleans it up. And I've seen a car "engulfed in flames" exactly one time in my entire adult life.

I've seen cars engulfed in flames I'd say a dozen or more times (alas, the first time I drove into Houston) and it would be more, except I've only lived in large cities 15 out of my 43 years.

Weirdly, growing up in Texas and living in Austin for 20 years, I never saw a burning car until I moved to Alabama. I've seen several as well as many of the resulting pavement scorches.

AL does not have an annual vehicle inspection, by the way.