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Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

nytimes.com

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Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#161

Post by scottlamb »

vsareto wrote: post #146
scottlamb wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they can. jeffbee was still correct. And no matter what other hats they might wear, it's inappropriate to show up like this when there's no reason to anticipate any violence.

We can't end this debate without the warrant. You can acknowledge that you don't have that information and there's a chance it was justified before they rolled up if any of the people were known to be affiliated with dangerous people. If you know of a way to figure out if every situation is going to be dangerous before it happens, definitely put that forward. I'll acknowledge that it could have been some bored SWAT g…

Justified? No. I agree there's a chance—a very very slim one—that they had information that would make me think their show of force was reasonable. But AFAIK, they didn't supply it. They didn't justify their actions to the general public or to any oversight agency, either ahead of time (understandable) or after the fact (less so), and nothing compels them to do so. They can execute the warrants as they see fit, using basically whatever ex-military hardware they like, without explaining themselves to anyone.

I further believe that this lack of justification is routine. Even if there was a good reason, that do this routinely without being either compelled or persuaded to supply it is by itself evidence our police are militarized.

American police collectively lost a lot of trust and authority. Obviously the most significant aspect is actually murdering people like George Floyd in plain sight while wearing a badge. But dangerous stunts like this are a contributor as well. Do they want to regain our trust?

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#162

Post by Leherenn »

chrisseaton wrote: post #147
sandworm101 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5) Change the uniforms. Dress for the job you want. If they all dress like storm troopers some of them will act like storm troopers. NY state patrol uniform: Grey with purple ties. https://northcountrynow.com/sites/default/files/images/Zone2... NYPD (new york city ) police: Black on black with black ties. https://media.timeout.com/images/103899055/image.jpg It seems meaningless, but having interacted with a few polic…

It's be great if the police in the US had a more consistent uniform. If I go from one town to another in the US the police could look completely different. How are you supposed to be able to tell a police officer from a private security guard there?

Aren't a lot of private security guards just off duty officers?

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#163

Post by aianus »

nds43242 wrote: post #99
jeffbee wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Changing the inventory will reduce the appeal of police work for psycho assholes who fantasize about shooting protesters. Special weapons and vehicles should be reserved for centralized, specialized police forces who are called out when needed, if ever. Most cops should be issued a radio and a bicycle, so you attract people who want to look like [1] instead of [2]. 1: https://files.kstatecollegian.com/2014/08/08.27.1…

How do you engender an idea of a UK/Canada-type cop in a country where there are more guns than people? I assume cops here are trained to see all citizens as armed threats, which systematically produces cops who are always on edge and ready to kill. The whole thing feels like a deeper problem than just training cops to be nicer.

> an idea of a UK/Canada-type cop

It's a pet peeve of mine when people on social media mischaracterize Canada.

We have shootouts in broad daylight in downtown Toronto on a fairly regular basis. All of our cops have guns and are trained to use them. We have 35 legal guns per 100 population and that doesn't account for the illegal handguns from the US which account for almost all of the gun crime.

Canada and the UK are nothing alike in gun crime.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#164

Post by rconti »

coopsmgoops wrote: post #122
sandworm101 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5) Change the uniforms. Dress for the job you want. If they all dress like storm troopers some of them will act like storm troopers. NY state patrol uniform: Grey with purple ties. https://northcountrynow.com/sites/default/files/images/Zone2... NYPD (new york city ) police: Black on black with black ties. https://media.timeout.com/images/103899055/image.jpg It seems meaningless, but having interacted with a few polic…

I agree from a public relations standpoint too. All the new cruisers in my city are black Chargers/Challengers with battering ram front bumpers and they look way too intense for the job. I'm also scared irreparable damage had been done to the police brand such that way fewer "good" people will want to sign up.

Pusher bumpers are just standard, and have been forever. A friend got accidentally rear-ended by a cop, no damage thanks to the pusher.

The police need to push cars to the side of the road on, I'd venture, a daily basis.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#165

Post by LevGoldstein »

mberning wrote: post #128
mulmen wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police body cams have significant privacy challenges. There are no easy answers there. Consolidation of power to the federal level is a very blunt tool. Our nation is not built on such centralization of power. In fact the foundation is the opposite. Yes, deaths and injuries should be reviewed but this should happen at as local a level as possible. There’s need for reform but more federal power is not the solution.

I am not seeing the privacy issue. In most cases the police are interacting with people out in the public rather than in their homes and businesses. In most jurisdictions it is already one party consent to record.

Privacy issues as in "I'm in the middle of my shift and need to use the restroom, but can't shut off the always-on recording" is a common example.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#166

Post by stdbrouw »

rconti wrote: post #164
coopsmgoops wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree from a public relations standpoint too. All the new cruisers in my city are black Chargers/Challengers with battering ram front bumpers and they look way too intense for the job. I'm also scared irreparable damage had been done to the police brand such that way fewer "good" people will want to sign up.

Pusher bumpers are just standard, and have been forever. A friend got accidentally rear-ended by a cop, no damage thanks to the pusher. The police need to push cars to the side of the road on, I'd venture, a daily basis.

> The police need to push cars to the side of the road on, I'd venture, a daily basis.

In what kind of weird and twisted world do police officers need to push cars to the side on a daily basis?

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#167

Post by tharne »

jeffbee wrote: post #156
tharne wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That really depends on where you're a cop. Most towns in the U.S. are very safe, so yes, in aggregate being a cop in the U.S. is very safe. But no one experiences the aggregate, and there are some incredibly dangerous places in the U.S. that you don't see anything similar to in other developed countries. Sure, being a cop in Scarsdale, NY is a pretty safe bet. Being a beat cop in Camden, NJ, not so much.

Really? The site that tracks police killed in the line of duty lists 1975 as the last time a Camden police officer died. Another surprising fact is the last two NYPD officers to be killed on duty, the total of all NYPD officers killed on duty in the last three years, were both shot by other NYPD officers.

Just because you don't die, doesn't mean your job is safe. Most of the time, getting shot, stabbed, punched in the face, or hit by a car is not lethal. That doesn't make it ok or mean that you're safe. I'm pretty sure that if every time you went into the office, there was a good chance that someone would try to strike you, you'd quickly conclude that your workplace wasn't very safe.

It reminds of me of all the people still referring to Covid as a "bad cold" or "not a big deal" because the fatality rate is only 0.5%, completely ignoring any and all concern around morbidity, as if being stuck on ventilator or having permanent lung damage was just fine because it wasn't fatal.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#168

Post by catalogia »

CapricornNoble wrote: post #92
catalogia wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we should also make it legal for police departments to discriminate against combat veterans when hiring, and encourage them to do so. Perhaps as a token of fairness, this could be paired with a separate initiative to provide other sort of jobs to combat veterans. People trained by the military to police occupied communities should not be allowed to act as civilian police in peacetime conditions.

>>>People trained by the military to police occupied communities should not be allowed to act as civilian police in peacetime conditions. I've brought this up before: US law enforcement has a long-established training relationship with Israel. Is it any surprise that American police have a "siege mentality" when they are being trained by a country that is basically dealing with a multi-decade insurgency/hybrid war? h…

You're quite right; this is another aspect of the same sort of problem: Police being trained by the military or by military veterans (be they American or foreign.)

When the matter of police training is raised, much consideration is given to the training police aren't receiving but should receive. I think too few consider the matter of training the police are receiving but shouldn't be.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#169

Post by colejohnson66 »

stdbrouw wrote: post #166
rconti wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pusher bumpers are just standard, and have been forever. A friend got accidentally rear-ended by a cop, no damage thanks to the pusher. The police need to push cars to the side of the road on, I'd venture, a daily basis.

> The police need to push cars to the side of the road on, I'd venture, a daily basis. In what kind of weird and twisted world do police officers need to push cars to the side on a daily basis?

Car chases? If, when they stop the car, it’s in the middle of the road, you can’t just leave it there until a tow truck comes; that’d block traffic for longer. So, push it to the side.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#170

Post by core-questions »

mulmen wrote: post #134
core-questions wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sympathetic to the cause of saving money but if the military won't auction something to a random US citizen I don't see why they should be auctioning that thing to a random US civilian police force. I don't see why it's not clear there's a difference here, in terms of community interest, but whatever > A civilian police force should have no special rights above any other civilian entity. What a weird way of loo…

That’s absolutely not the point of the police. Any power granted to the police is granted by the people they are changed with protecting. The police are not our overlords, they are our servants.

This is an understanding of power without any understanding of force or sovereignty. It should be more clear than ever what power truly is.
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