Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 339 posts

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#151

Post by tharne »

tsss wrote: post #125
nds43242 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you engender an idea of a UK/Canada-type cop in a country where there are more guns than people? I assume cops here are trained to see all citizens as armed threats, which systematically produces cops who are always on edge and ready to kill. The whole thing feels like a deeper problem than just training cops to be nicer.

Being a cop is actually a very safe job. I'd bet that your chance of being shot as a cashier at subway is higher than as a cop.

That really depends on where you're a cop. Most towns in the U.S. are very safe, so yes, in aggregate being a cop in the U.S. is very safe. But no one experiences the aggregate, and there are some incredibly dangerous places in the U.S. that you don't see anything similar to in other developed countries. Sure, being a cop in Scarsdale, NY is a pretty safe bet. Being a beat cop in Camden, NJ, not so much.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#152

Post by JumpCrisscross »

mrep wrote: post #131
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this would shift expenses for bad policing settlements from taxpayers to bad actors Why wouldn't the taxpayers be expected to pick up the cost in the form of increased pay? Better: police unions indemnifying their employers against convictions.

From the article: One objection is that police are already doing a difficult and dangerous job for relatively low pay, and it would be unfair to saddle them with the additional cost of insuring themselves. No problem. We can take that pot of taxpayer money currently being used to pay damage awards for misbehaving cops — $308 million in payouts last year divided by 34,000 uniformed NYPD officers equals nearly $10,000…

> When very‐ high‐ risk officers see premiums go up, they would have to pay the difference out of their own pockets

These policies would almost certainly be bought and negotiated on the union level, as a union benefit. As such, rates would rise for everyone and be passed on to the taxpayer.

Indemnification requirements are simpler, and cut out the middle man. If the union then chooses to pass than risk to an insurer, that can be negotiated separately.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#153

Post by adamsea »

Shivetya wrote: post #28

The equipment issue isn't going to solve anything, this is just lip service to the real problem. Police Unions have effectively created a system by which officers are nearly immune from prosecution and even if successfully prosecuted their record cannot travel with them in many cases. Now one fix that removing some of the equipment will do will reduce the amount of psychological impact it has on those wielding it, as…

Clothes matter more than you think.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#154

Post by mulmen »

nsl73 wrote: post #73
jeffbee wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Changing the inventory will reduce the appeal of police work for psycho assholes who fantasize about shooting protesters. Special weapons and vehicles should be reserved for centralized, specialized police forces who are called out when needed, if ever. Most cops should be issued a radio and a bicycle, so you attract people who want to look like [1] instead of [2]. 1: https://files.kstatecollegian.com/2014/08/08.27.1…

> Most cops should be issued a radio and a bicycle, so you attract people who want to look like [1] instead of [2]. Having police on the roads is having a huge positive impact on drinking and driving. Let’s be careful not to over-correct when demilitarizing our police force.

How does an MRAP reduce drunk driving?

How does any military hardware reduce drunk driving?

Yes, police need cars. That’s not controversial.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#155

Post by hysan »

abootstrapper wrote: post #144
twblalock wrote: post #21

Police were able to brutalize protesters in the 1960s with much simpler equipment than they have today. The equipment is not the problem.

The equipment is not the only problem. But it is a very big problem, and it’s the easiest to solve. So let’s solve it.

If it's easy to solve, then it should be a footnote in a much more difficult to tackle solution.

Right now, this reads very much like a deflection of the core issues at hand. This will not alleviate the core issue at all in the long term, but gives the appearance that lawmakers are "doing their best" to solve the problem. That they've "taken first steps" and that protests should stop.

No.

This is an extremely common tactic and will lead to no long term changes.

While it is hard to argue against what you're saying, your comment is actually doing the same thing as what the lawmakers are doing - detracting the conversation from the core issue.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#156

Post by jeffbee »

tharne wrote: post #151
tsss wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a cop is actually a very safe job. I'd bet that your chance of being shot as a cashier at subway is higher than as a cop.

That really depends on where you're a cop. Most towns in the U.S. are very safe, so yes, in aggregate being a cop in the U.S. is very safe. But no one experiences the aggregate, and there are some incredibly dangerous places in the U.S. that you don't see anything similar to in other developed countries. Sure, being a cop in Scarsdale, NY is a pretty safe bet. Being a beat cop in Camden, NJ, not so much.

Really? The site that tracks police killed in the line of duty lists 1975 as the last time a Camden police officer died.

Another surprising fact is the last two NYPD officers to be killed on duty, the total of all NYPD officers killed on duty in the last three years, were both shot by other NYPD officers.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#157

Post by mulmen »

mberning wrote: post #128
mulmen wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police body cams have significant privacy challenges. There are no easy answers there. Consolidation of power to the federal level is a very blunt tool. Our nation is not built on such centralization of power. In fact the foundation is the opposite. Yes, deaths and injuries should be reviewed but this should happen at as local a level as possible. There’s need for reform but more federal power is not the solution.

I am not seeing the privacy issue. In most cases the police are interacting with people out in the public rather than in their homes and businesses. In most jurisdictions it is already one party consent to record.

Because being recorded can have a chilling effect on speech. Officers recording a peaceful, legal protest could exert undue influence on constitutional rights. It’s a reasonable concern.

More cameras is not always good, even in public and even if legal.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#158

Post by twblalock »

tomohawk wrote: post #72

The Posse Comitatus act prohibits the military from operating within the US, except at the borders, and as provided by the Insurrection Act. The Insurrection Act requires a State governor or legislature to request military assistance during an insurrection. The act also allows the president to act without that, if the State is not acting in a way that is protecting people's rights. This is why Bush could not deploy t…

The Posse Comitatus and Insurrection acts are primarily concerned with protecting states from the federal government. That's why it's legal for states to use their National Guard units, which are definitely military, as law enforcement.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#159

Post by Animats »

sandworm101 wrote: post #84
Shivetya wrote: post #28

The equipment issue isn't going to solve anything, this is just lip service to the real problem. Police Unions have effectively created a system by which officers are nearly immune from prosecution and even if successfully prosecuted their record cannot travel with them in many cases. Now one fix that removing some of the equipment will do will reduce the amount of psychological impact it has on those wielding it, as…

5) Change the uniforms. Dress for the job you want. If they all dress like storm troopers some of them will act like storm troopers. NY state patrol uniform: Grey with purple ties. https://northcountrynow.com/sites/default/files/images/Zone2... NYPD (new york city ) police: Black on black with black ties. https://media.timeout.com/images/103899055/image.jpg It seems meaningless, but having interacted with a few polic…

And those aren't even the NYPD's Hercules unit.[1] Steel helmets and an assault rifle. Hercules is purely for intimidation. They mostly stand around and look impressive. They're not SWAT; that's a different unit.

[1] http://blogs.reuters.com/photo/files/2011/09/mdf489180.jpg

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#160

Post by [deleted] »

vsareto wrote: post #86
jeffbee wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[2] is the Alameda County Sheriff serving an eviction on a bunch of old women.

Post your source, because this seems to indicate it is SWAT: https://reason.com/2020/01/15/oakland-uses-swat-force-with-t... The other side is they didn't know it was only old women in the home.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN