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Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

nytimes.com

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Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#81

Post by pmarreck »

Shivetya wrote: post #28

The equipment issue isn't going to solve anything, this is just lip service to the real problem. Police Unions have effectively created a system by which officers are nearly immune from prosecution and even if successfully prosecuted their record cannot travel with them in many cases. Now one fix that removing some of the equipment will do will reduce the amount of psychological impact it has on those wielding it, as…

According to the data, it will help:

https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655717038067712?s=21

(pasted the tweet which contains the link to the data because his entire tweet thread is interesting!)

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#82

Post by vsareto »

jeffbee wrote: post #41
Shivetya wrote: post #28

The equipment issue isn't going to solve anything, this is just lip service to the real problem. Police Unions have effectively created a system by which officers are nearly immune from prosecution and even if successfully prosecuted their record cannot travel with them in many cases. Now one fix that removing some of the equipment will do will reduce the amount of psychological impact it has on those wielding it, as…

Changing the inventory will reduce the appeal of police work for psycho assholes who fantasize about shooting protesters. Special weapons and vehicles should be reserved for centralized, specialized police forces who are called out when needed, if ever. Most cops should be issued a radio and a bicycle, so you attract people who want to look like [1] instead of [2]. 1: https://files.kstatecollegian.com/2014/08/08.27.1…

If you show up for riot duty wearing [1], you're likely to walk away with injuries. If this goes through, make sure to track police injuries during riots if you want to be forthcoming. Violent protesters and instigators will throw things no matter whether you're in [1] or [2].

Bike squads on regular duty almost always look like [1] anyway. [2] might be a SWAT picture.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#83

Post by jeffbee »

vsareto wrote: post #82
jeffbee wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Changing the inventory will reduce the appeal of police work for psycho assholes who fantasize about shooting protesters. Special weapons and vehicles should be reserved for centralized, specialized police forces who are called out when needed, if ever. Most cops should be issued a radio and a bicycle, so you attract people who want to look like [1] instead of [2]. 1: https://files.kstatecollegian.com/2014/08/08.27.1…

If you show up for riot duty wearing [1], you're likely to walk away with injuries. If this goes through, make sure to track police injuries during riots if you want to be forthcoming. Violent protesters and instigators will throw things no matter whether you're in [1] or [2]. Bike squads on regular duty almost always look like [1] anyway. [2] might be a SWAT picture.

[2] is the Alameda County Sheriff serving an eviction on a bunch of old women.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#84

Post by sandworm101 »

Shivetya wrote: post #28

The equipment issue isn't going to solve anything, this is just lip service to the real problem. Police Unions have effectively created a system by which officers are nearly immune from prosecution and even if successfully prosecuted their record cannot travel with them in many cases. Now one fix that removing some of the equipment will do will reduce the amount of psychological impact it has on those wielding it, as…

5) Change the uniforms.

Dress for the job you want. If they all dress like storm troopers some of them will act like storm troopers.

NY state patrol uniform: Grey with purple ties. https://northcountrynow.com/sites/default/files/images/Zone2...

NYPD (new york city) police: Black on black with black ties. https://media.timeout.com/images/103899055/image.jpg

It seems meaningless, but having interacted with a few police agencies I have noticed a trend. They cops that show up for meetings in head-to-toe black tend to be more aggressive. They try to assert themselves in every meeting, which is entertaining as we are the military. They cannot win the "who has the bigger gun" thing. The cops that come in oldschool blue shirts and ties are much easier to work with.

(Fyi, if those two NYPD officers in the pic were in the military they would get a talking to about attitude. Hands in pockets. Chewing. Crossed arms. In public? Have some respect for your uniform.)

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#85

Post by lima »

jeffbee wrote: post #83
vsareto wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you show up for riot duty wearing [1], you're likely to walk away with injuries. If this goes through, make sure to track police injuries during riots if you want to be forthcoming. Violent protesters and instigators will throw things no matter whether you're in [1] or [2]. Bike squads on regular duty almost always look like [1] anyway. [2] might be a SWAT picture.

[2] is the Alameda County Sheriff serving an eviction on a bunch of old women.

Just to make sure, this is a joke, correct?

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#86

Post by vsareto »

jeffbee wrote: post #83
vsareto wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you show up for riot duty wearing [1], you're likely to walk away with injuries. If this goes through, make sure to track police injuries during riots if you want to be forthcoming. Violent protesters and instigators will throw things no matter whether you're in [1] or [2]. Bike squads on regular duty almost always look like [1] anyway. [2] might be a SWAT picture.

[2] is the Alameda County Sheriff serving an eviction on a bunch of old women.

Post your source, because this seems to indicate it is SWAT: https://reason.com/2020/01/15/oakland-uses-swat-force-with-t...

The other side is they didn't know it was only old women in the home.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#87

Post by arminiusreturns »

syshum wrote: post #31
rconti wrote: post #14

A common response to the idea of "police reform" is that it will make it harder/more expensive/etc to hire police, which we all agree we need. As an armchair economist who believes that everything DOES happen at the margins, we can't completely ignore this, so I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to the argument. But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded…

>>This is before we get into whether we really even want "those people" this is the key point. I have known many people that would like to have been a "police officer" in the sense that I believe many people think policing should be. After finding out it is more like the military than servicing the community they dropped the pursuit More recently I have even seen many Former Military people shy away from going into t…

A big part of this that I don't see addressed: huge numbers of LEO's are sent to Israel to train.

I don't even have to say anything further. It speaks for itself.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#88

Post by hugh4life »

rconti wrote: post #14

A common response to the idea of "police reform" is that it will make it harder/more expensive/etc to hire police, which we all agree we need. As an armchair economist who believes that everything DOES happen at the margins, we can't completely ignore this, so I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to the argument. But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded…

"But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded to COVID-19, putting their lives on the line every day, with utterly inadequate gear. And still they serve."

You can't compare spontaneous heroism with mundane risk.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#89

Post by jeffbee »

vsareto wrote: post #86
jeffbee wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[2] is the Alameda County Sheriff serving an eviction on a bunch of old women.

Post your source, because this seems to indicate it is SWAT: https://reason.com/2020/01/15/oakland-uses-swat-force-with-t... The other side is they didn't know it was only old women in the home.

Well I don't know who's going to be at the grocery store, so I better strap on my grenades. You can't be too careful.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#90

Post by pmorici »

syshum wrote: post #40
pmorici wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that both professions have the same sort of "service in a time of crisis" mythology surrounding them but how does the fact that the norm for the medical profession is high pay where as the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage starting out with a shot as average pay after several years of service affect those myths?

Where are police officers being paid Minimum Wage? In my city a 1st year officer makes about 15-20% more than the median HOUSEHOLD income for the city. (most Households are 2 income at least). That is base income not factoring in Shift Premiums, Overtime, and various other income they earn So I would love to know what city you are referring to where cops are being paid the minimum wage

No where, I said 'slightly above starting out'. For example in Baltimore where they have a $15 minimum wage (~31k /yr) the advertised starting salary for a police officer is something like $35-38k while they are in training which as far as I can tell lasts for 6-12 months that gets bumped up to ~$53k and after several years you can take some kind of test to become a supervisor where you make up to low six figures. A college degree is helpful but not strictly required.

A doctor on the other hand starts out making 70k in their residency after 4 years of undergrad and 4 years of med school. Once their residency is over they can expect to make well into the six figures. Probably in the 300-400k range. COVID is a few months of increased danger that happens perhaps once in a career for which some medical professionals are even getting paid extra for.

I don't necessarily think police are under paid but to say you can attract people because of the public service aspect of the job and ignore the vast pay difference seems to ignore the obvious difference.

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