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Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

nytimes.com

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Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#141

Post by bradleybuda »

ashtonkem wrote: post #130
vsareto wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you show up for riot duty wearing [1], you're likely to walk away with injuries. If this goes through, make sure to track police injuries during riots if you want to be forthcoming. Violent protesters and instigators will throw things no matter whether you're in [1] or [2]. Bike squads on regular duty almost always look like [1] anyway. [2] might be a SWAT picture.

If you show up for protest duty in [2] you’re more likely to turn it into a riot.

Given the video evidence we've seen over the last week that most of the "riots" are in fact police riots, yes, it's time to disarm them.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#142

Post by reaperducer »

pmorici wrote: post #18
rconti wrote: post #14

A common response to the idea of "police reform" is that it will make it harder/more expensive/etc to hire police, which we all agree we need. As an armchair economist who believes that everything DOES happen at the margins, we can't completely ignore this, so I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to the argument. But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded…

I agree that both professions have the same sort of "service in a time of crisis" mythology surrounding them but how does the fact that the norm for the medical profession is high pay where as the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage starting out with a shot as average pay after several years of service affect those myths?

the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage starting out

Is it? I hear ads on the radio for Portland Police in my state (which is not Oregon) and it says pay starts at $74,000/year plus a long list of benefits.

Is $35/hour the minimum page in Portland now?

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#143

Post by vsareto »

AlexandrB wrote: post #127
vsareto wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grocery stores are public places, homes are not. Homes can be located in gang territory. Police ambushes do happen. I'm not saying they get it right 100% of the time, but serving warrants and bike patrol have way different risks. It's also entirely possible the warrant was unjustifiably a high risk warrant. In that case, SWAT could serve the warrant, and you get this situation. But that's not SWAT's fault.

> But that's not SWAT's fault. Obviously it's no one's fault. We should just accept things the way they are and change nothing.

>Obviously it's no one's fault. We should just accept things the way they are and change nothing.

I'm not saying that, you'd want to find out why the warrant was high risk or deserved a SWAT response. Someone made that call, and it may not have been SWAT themselves. And you should take actions to ensure it doesn't happen again and hold them accountable. If you find abuse of power, you need to get rid of that person.

The key theme here is that you usually don't get all of the details about why things happened. Sometimes it's honest mistakes. Sometimes it's abuse of power. Sometimes there's miscommunication.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#144

Post by abootstrapper »

twblalock wrote: post #21

Police were able to brutalize protesters in the 1960s with much simpler equipment than they have today. The equipment is not the problem.

The equipment is not the only problem. But it is a very big problem, and it’s the easiest to solve. So let’s solve it.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#145

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

Shivetya wrote: post #28

The equipment issue isn't going to solve anything, this is just lip service to the real problem. Police Unions have effectively created a system by which officers are nearly immune from prosecution and even if successfully prosecuted their record cannot travel with them in many cases. Now one fix that removing some of the equipment will do will reduce the amount of psychological impact it has on those wielding it, as…

There are many "real problems." This will help solve one of them.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#146

Post by vsareto »

scottlamb wrote: post #137
vsareto wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sheriff deputies can be on SWAT teams

Sure they can. jeffbee was still correct. And no matter what other hats they might wear, it's inappropriate to show up like this when there's no reason to anticipate any violence.

We can't end this debate without the warrant. You can acknowledge that you don't have that information and there's a chance it was justified before they rolled up if any of the people were known to be affiliated with dangerous people. If you know of a way to figure out if every situation is going to be dangerous before it happens, definitely put that forward. I'll acknowledge that it could have been some bored SWAT guys just looking to show off and it was completely unnecessary show of force and waste of taxpayer money.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#147

Post by chrisseaton »

sandworm101 wrote: post #84
Shivetya wrote: post #28

The equipment issue isn't going to solve anything, this is just lip service to the real problem. Police Unions have effectively created a system by which officers are nearly immune from prosecution and even if successfully prosecuted their record cannot travel with them in many cases. Now one fix that removing some of the equipment will do will reduce the amount of psychological impact it has on those wielding it, as…

5) Change the uniforms. Dress for the job you want. If they all dress like storm troopers some of them will act like storm troopers. NY state patrol uniform: Grey with purple ties. https://northcountrynow.com/sites/default/files/images/Zone2... NYPD (new york city ) police: Black on black with black ties. https://media.timeout.com/images/103899055/image.jpg It seems meaningless, but having interacted with a few polic…

It's be great if the police in the US had a more consistent uniform. If I go from one town to another in the US the police could look completely different. How are you supposed to be able to tell a police officer from a private security guard there?

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#148

Post by [deleted] »

nsl73 wrote: post #73
jeffbee wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Changing the inventory will reduce the appeal of police work for psycho assholes who fantasize about shooting protesters. Special weapons and vehicles should be reserved for centralized, specialized police forces who are called out when needed, if ever. Most cops should be issued a radio and a bicycle, so you attract people who want to look like [1] instead of [2]. 1: https://files.kstatecollegian.com/2014/08/08.27.1…

> Most cops should be issued a radio and a bicycle, so you attract people who want to look like [1] instead of [2]. Having police on the roads is having a huge positive impact on drinking and driving. Let’s be careful not to over-correct when demilitarizing our police force.

[deleted]

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#149

Post by mulmen »

coopsmgoops wrote: post #122
sandworm101 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5) Change the uniforms. Dress for the job you want. If they all dress like storm troopers some of them will act like storm troopers. NY state patrol uniform: Grey with purple ties. https://northcountrynow.com/sites/default/files/images/Zone2... NYPD (new york city ) police: Black on black with black ties. https://media.timeout.com/images/103899055/image.jpg It seems meaningless, but having interacted with a few polic…

I agree from a public relations standpoint too. All the new cruisers in my city are black Chargers/Challengers with battering ram front bumpers and they look way too intense for the job. I'm also scared irreparable damage had been done to the police brand such that way fewer "good" people will want to sign up.

The battering ram is useful even for peaceful purposes. It’s great for pushing crashed cars to the side of the road and is a good place to hook a tow strap. I’m from a rural part of the country and they have come in handy multiple times.

Totally agreed on the paint schemes.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#150

Post by tharne »

nds43242 wrote: post #99
jeffbee wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Changing the inventory will reduce the appeal of police work for psycho assholes who fantasize about shooting protesters. Special weapons and vehicles should be reserved for centralized, specialized police forces who are called out when needed, if ever. Most cops should be issued a radio and a bicycle, so you attract people who want to look like [1] instead of [2]. 1: https://files.kstatecollegian.com/2014/08/08.27.1…

How do you engender an idea of a UK/Canada-type cop in a country where there are more guns than people? I assume cops here are trained to see all citizens as armed threats, which systematically produces cops who are always on edge and ready to kill. The whole thing feels like a deeper problem than just training cops to be nicer.

Not enough people acknowledge this. The U.S. is a heavily armed country. It is very easy to (legally) buy military grade weapons in most states. Knowing that you could potentially get your head blown off anytime you pull someone over is going to lead to a very different psychology than you might see in a country like South Korea or Germany where very few people, if any, are armed. You can't just say, "Oh look how nice the police are in . Let's just do what they do".

This a much more complex issue than the media or either political party is willing to acknowledge.

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