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De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

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Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#141

Post by tw000001 »

just_steve_h wrote: post #10

Folks - don't be obtuse. Police commanders know exactly what will happen when they escalate with tear gas and rubber bullets. Pro-police forces WANT mayhem. It makes people watching on TV afraid of the protests, and it changes the subject away from the widespread peaceful opposition to racist police violence.

I've been monitoring some 20 streams for 3 days straight and in almost every case the protests begin with hours of protestors within inches of police' faces screaming, belittling and dehumanizing the cops, with frequent disparaging references to homosexuality, gender, race, and physical stature.

All the meanwhile the police are standing stoically in every single example.

At what point is it appropriate to escalate force against a crowd which is increasingly rowdy and hostile? In every single case, police so far have escalated gradually. First with commands, then coordinated movements, gas, flashbangs, and finally rubber bullets. Regardless of whether the majority of protestors are actually peaceful, in all of these confrontations the police are outnumbered 2-10x. The rioters are turning this into a life or death threat, as unruly mobs are wont to do.

In fact I've seen a decided lack of police brutality. I haven't seen a single case of anyone being beaten. And I also acknowledge that multiple groups have during the day been on camera calming down rioters and protecting the businesses of their communities.

But the narrative that police are being excessive currently is by my multitude of observations totally untrue and it is extremely dangerous for the media to push such an idea, as they have done by repeatedly and consistently claiming that the protests are peaceful while buildings and cars are burning behind them.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#142

Post by bluGill »

komali2 wrote: post #131
lsh123 wrote: post #121

Could we please stop calling “protesters” all the people looting jewelry stores, Target, Nike, etc? These are not protesters, these are looters. Police should use any means at their disposal to protect lives and property from looters and rioters.

Could we please not waste a second of thought on the relatively minor issue of broken store windows until we sort the issue of cops indiscriminately killing black people? If you care so much, how about petition your local police force to dump their tear gas at the range and stop firing on peaceful protesters, turning a lot of sitting people into a riot.

I care about both. Two wrongs are two wrongs.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#143

Post by tw000001 »

evan_ wrote: post #119
Larrikin wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Almost never. Are there any videos or stories at all over the past few days? There have been reports in some cities of the actual good cops here and there taking part in the protests and actually looking like they want to improve things in their communities, but I haven't heard of anything where the police have intervened on cops that were escalating violence and brutalizing protesters. It would be a pretty big turn…

There’s a video of a cop pushing a kneeling woman and then a black woman police officer yells at him for a little bit, that’s about it. I guess you could count the video of a Seattle cop telling another cop to take his knee off of a protester’s throat.

There are literal videos of cops kneeling with protestors in shows of solidarity. Peacefully talking. In LA they're sitting right now.

I cannot believe how far people will go seeing what they want to see.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#144

Post by komali2 »

briefcomment wrote: post #59
HarryHirsch wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crocodile tears. Police chiefs knew all along about the deplorable amount of racism and casual violence on their forces, they just chose to ignore them. Now the political winds are shifting and they have to go along to keep their jobs.

Change does not require looting and beatings does it? Wouldn't looting and beatings simply give the police more power, and be counter productive against making police more accountable? Looters and those who bash people's skulls in are opportunists who don't care about change. The ones that want change see their opportunity slipping away.

> Change does not require looting and beatings does it?

Just how long do you think the civil rights movement has been a thing? 50 years of doing things the way the white people demanded - peaceful protests, sit ins, black political leaders. Yup, it helped, it went down, but it never solved the problem, and I see no indication that it would have on a reasonable time scale. And the whole time you've got people STILL saying "no not like that. No you can't kneel at a football game. Shut up and dribble. Shut up and sing."

Nah. The money to pay back damaged shops should come straight out of the police budget for two reasons: 1. Failure to stop police brutality. 2. Failure to deescalate peaceful protests, in fact, for doing the opposite and firing on peaceful protesters and driving them to riot.

Absolutely disgusting the videos coming out of the last three days. A few burnt out targets is a small price to pay for popping the eyes of multiple people, for tear gassing little girls, for running over protesters, for letting go white people firing arrows at protesters. The cops are lucky it didn't get even more violent. They're damn lucky nobody snapped after getting shot by paintballs on their own porch and started firing back.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#145

Post by komali2 »

briefcomment wrote: post #97
toomuchtodo wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the change hasn’t happened yet, what other options are left? Looting? Probably not. Protests until meaningful reform occurs? Might help if nothing else has. A government is supposed to be afraid of the electorate (Jefferson). They’ve lost that fear, and you see that trickle down from legislators all the way to law enforcement.

The electorate induces fear by holding the ability to give and take power from the government. They make their demands known by being loud. The vast majority of us have been guilty of being silent when our neighbor is desperately imploring the government for change. I am guilty of silence, and I regret it and will make my demands known. All of this does not mean that the reasonable peaceful path is not effective. It…

They burnt down the police station and we had an arrest 8 hours later.

It works, and we should keep doing it until the lesson is learned.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#146

Post by save_ferris »

gonzo41 wrote: post #49
davros wrote: post #17

From afar, it seems to me like the big problem in US policing is a lack of calm professionalism. The de-escalation approach in the article would to me but just one aspect of taking a professional approach where safety and following rules and best practices is paramount (and prioritised over 'winning' against criminals).

I have had to patrol streets in Iraq during the surge in 2007, It was dangerous, but our ROE had escalations rules and everyone patrolled at a low ready with their helmets off. The intent was to make us a boring part of the background rather than an antagonist, and to make us look like we didn't want to be there as much as they didn't want us there. Cop's look more and more like soldiers and I think you're right abou…

This is one thing I keep hearing from service members, that the rules of engagement are much more stringent and measured in the armed forces compared to standard LEOs.

What were some of the concrete rules/policies that you found effective overseas that could be effective here? I wish we as a society talked in more concrete terms around this topic.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#148

Post by markdown »

drusepth wrote: post #111
just_steve_h wrote: post #10

Folks - don't be obtuse. Police commanders know exactly what will happen when they escalate with tear gas and rubber bullets. Pro-police forces WANT mayhem. It makes people watching on TV afraid of the protests, and it changes the subject away from the widespread peaceful opposition to racist police violence.

I am pro-police and I do NOT want mayhem. The ideal protest in my eyes is a peaceful, effective one. One that causes real change -- like increased oversight, accountability, altered training, etc -- in the general police population: one that fixes the very real problems we've seen with police for years and continuously improves law enforcement for years to come. Claiming "pro-police forces WANT mayhem" paints the sit…

> The ideal protest in my eyes is a peaceful, effective one.

This is the US; you only get to pick one of those.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#149

Post by lsh123 »

parhamn wrote: post #128
lsh123 wrote: post #121

Could we please stop calling “protesters” all the people looting jewelry stores, Target, Nike, etc? These are not protesters, these are looters. Police should use any means at their disposal to protect lives and property from looters and rioters.

There are a ton of heavy, non-looting protests going on as well.

Absolutely and I don’t think that any reasonable person will have any problem with those. I can’t speak for all the places in US but my observations in San Jose (both personal and through FB/media) is that police was cool with peaceful protests. I saw a few times police and protesters hugging each other, doing fist bumps, etc.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#150

Post by komali2 »

tw000001 wrote: post #143
evan_ wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a video of a cop pushing a kneeling woman and then a black woman police officer yells at him for a little bit, that’s about it. I guess you could count the video of a Seattle cop telling another cop to take his knee off of a protester’s throat.

There are literal videos of cops kneeling with protestors in shows of solidarity. Peacefully talking. In LA they're sitting right now. I cannot believe how far people will go seeing what they want to see.

Yup, and then there's other videos of cops marching with protesters... Straight into the waiting arms of the national guard, where protesters get boxed in, shot at, and arrested.

On the whole, the cops have been insanely brutal.

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