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US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

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Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#241

Post by dogma1138 »

ip26 wrote: post #227
dogma1138 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which police forces use Cobra helicopters? These are gunships that have no utility what so ever. As for Blackhawks I’ve never seen them used by police forces, those in civilian use are not surplus military helicopters or even the UH-60 but rather it’s civilian version the Sikorsky S-70 which are used by fire departments and search and rescue crews.

Sorry, mixed up UH-1 and AH-1. https://www.army.mil/article/180593/last_uh_1_huey_a_42_year... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zunO6iUVUT0

Police forces use transport and utility helicopters so what? None of these are attack helicopters other than the Cobra/Apache you won’t find a utility or transport (other than super heavy lifters) helicopters that don’t have a civilian version many of them started as civilian helicopter in the first place.

The UH-1 was developed as a medevac helicopter for the US army.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#242

Post by hindsightbias »

pm90 wrote: post #22

This was very predictable. Tools invented for military operations abroad eventually, predictably find their way back domestically. Despite that, its a dangerous thing to happen. I am aware of how unlikely it is for the current US Government to use the drone offensively, but once you have a massive fleet of drones flying over the US, patrolling "troubling" neighborhoods constantly, the temptation to use those abilitie…

Blue Thunder was 37 years ago. Not seeing why drones will be so much more easily weaponized than manned helicopters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Thunder

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#243

Post by outworlder »

bdesbrisay wrote: post #94
colejohnson66 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One is purposefully designed to surveil and kill (the Predator drone), while the other has a variety of uses. That’s where I draw the line: what was the purpose of creating it?

The drone is also controlled remotely and thus has more of a disconnect between the “pilot” and the subject. The police helicopter has a human element to/in it so the pilot would feel more responsibility for the destruction they caused if it were right in front of their eyes.

This is unsupported by evidence. Drone operators have a high incidence of PTSD.

> Studies have found similar levels of depression and PTSD among drone pilots working behind a bank of computers as among military personnel deployed to the battlefield.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/18/life-as-a-dron...

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#244

Post by panzagl »

ianleeclark wrote: post #200
nightski wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am from the area and I agree wholeheartedly that people > property. But let's be real, we saw a 182 unit multi story low income housing unit burn down to ash (the blaze was enormous). We also saw a police department building burn to ash. Countless local businesses have been completely destroyed by fire. That's a little more than spray paint and tv looting.

> But let's be real, we saw a 182 unit multi story low income housing unit burn down to ash (the blaze was enormous). This was a housing development that had some low-income units, but the majority were "market-price."

Oh, well that's ok then.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#245

Post by nightski »

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #170
nightski wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am from the area and I agree wholeheartedly that people > property. But let's be real, we saw a 182 unit multi story low income housing unit burn down to ash (the blaze was enormous). We also saw a police department building burn to ash. Countless local businesses have been completely destroyed by fire. That's a little more than spray paint and tv looting.

I find it funny that we expect black Americans to peacefully protest. "Please use this system of peaceful protest that hasn't worked for you since forever." LA was 92, we're almost 30 years to the year. Has anything changed? Do you tell HK protestors to write a letter to the CCP instead? It's such a double-standard.

Honestly I've been watching the protests and it's not black people rioting. It's a diverse group of black, Caucasian, and other minorities.

In fact, I saw the arsonist that set the police department on fire and it was a Caucasian male. This is not a group of African Americans rioting in protest. It's a diverse bunch of a bad actors ruining a community.

The protesters themselves seem rather peaceful.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#246

Post by nightski »

Simulacra wrote: post #155
nightski wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? It is my understanding that in Minnesota the governor did not even have control over the local policing, that was left to local leadership (mayor + police chief). He only took over control today, which was a very rare move. So I am not following how the president has much authority over local police activities. That is why Trump is referencing the National Guard and not an actual police force.

What do you mean by "He only took over control today" ? From what I saw in this article it doesn't say anything about the Governor taking over local police departments; perhaps you're referring to the national guard?

In his press briefing today he talked directly about it and how he made the decision to take direct control of the situation when the 3rd precinct building was abandoned yesterday as he found that unacceptable.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs4VjEsigiU

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#247

Post by outworlder »

daeken wrote: post #9
joshmn wrote: post #3

Native Minnesotan here — living in Minneapolis — that has lived on both coasts: With all that's happening the last few days, please don't generally associate Minnesotans with the violent riots that have captured the attention of everyone. The peacefulness of the protests and gatherings has been overshadowed by the violence. There are countless examples of Minnesotans standing up to those who choose to loot and destro…

> With all that's happening the last few days, please don't associate Minnesotans with the riots that have captured the attention of everyone. I understand what you're going for, but this is a bad approach. People aren't rioting because they want to destroy things, they're rioting because they don't feel like they're being heard. What you're saying here reads as "don't listen to them, they don't represent us" which i…

> People aren't rioting because they want to destroy things

Tip: don't use absolutes. Always leave some margin. As long as there is one single person alive or that has ever lived that conflicts with your statement, that will be used as a counter-example and will be nitpicked to death and people will focus on that, instead of the main point.

If you say "most people", that immediately deflects those arguments. I've learned that the hard way.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#248

Post by Alupis »

beambot wrote: post #32
pm90 wrote: post #22

This was very predictable. Tools invented for military operations abroad eventually, predictably find their way back domestically. Despite that, its a dangerous thing to happen. I am aware of how unlikely it is for the current US Government to use the drone offensively, but once you have a massive fleet of drones flying over the US, patrolling "troubling" neighborhoods constantly, the temptation to use those abilitie…

Where do you draw the distinction between a drone (presumably unarmed) vs a police helicopter?

I think we first need to determine what is upsetting about this, specifically.

Is it that they are flying a UAV that was originally designed for military use?

Or is it that they are flying a UAV period?

What if it was a new UAV, designed just for law enforcement? No problems then?

Presumably this UAV has no weapons on it, so I'm unsure what the problem could be unless we just flat oppose former military equipment being used?

It's safer and cheaper to fly a UAV than a manned vehicled - helicopters crash routinely and need multiple crews to keep them on station for extended duration. If it was a decommissioned military UAV that's being repurposed - then the tax payer has been saved a great deal of money as well.

So, what specifically is it that we don't like about this situation?

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#249

Post by maximente »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #194
remarkEon wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another fellow Minnesotan here and former Minneapolis resident (used to live a mile away from Hiawatha and Lake back in the day). >Characterizing what is happening as an edge case is a huge mistake. People do not spontaneously start protesting with so much anger if it hasn't built up over so long. These protests are at least partly drummed up by out of state agitators, and are implicitly condoned by a feckless and we…

> These protests are at least partly drummed up by out of state agitators This is a scary response. We saw, today, a black CNN reporter arrested by state police on live television. If that’s how an educated, gently-speaking, Constitutionally-protected member of the press is treated, there is a root issue festering. Blaming it on agitators deflects from introspection. A big part of the problem is Minneapolis’s moderat…

> A big part of the problem is Minneapolis’s moderates have turned a blind eye to the problems in their police force for years

that is a massive leap in agency that doesn't seem appropriate at all. any cities' "moderates" (??) have extremely limited agency over "the problems in the police force": if the head police officer is elected, that's one, and perhaps city council members who control budgets or other things related to police work.

since you're strongly implying that civic neglect is what caused this issue, what are the civic actions that this city's moderates should have taken in order to have prevented these problems?

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#250

Post by remarkEon »

testbot123 wrote: post #213
remarkEon wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, yes, I'm in the wrong here because I hope for order and not chaos. And someone will pull an MLK quote out of a hat to say as much.

You're failing to understand that the ordered system of justice that you're prescribing only works for a small portion of (wealthy, powerful) American society, because the processes of that order are intertwined with a systematic, institutionalized effort to deprive minorities of rights. People are fed up with trying to work inside of a system that barely considers them human.

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