Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income • Hacker News Board

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#721

Post by snidane » Fri, May 22, 2020, 9:02 PM UTC

fastball wrote: post #704

snidane wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, some monopolies are monopolies forever - network and utility monopolies. Second, you still have to deal with aggregate monopolies - ie when one societal class has monopoly pricing power over another. You cannot break up these as they are already broken up. The prime example is real estate and land market. Landlords have monopolistic pricing power over tenants. Price for rent is not governed by landlord's costs…

> First, some monopolies are monopolies forever - network and utility monopolies. Could you expand on this a bit more? Network and utility companies can clearly be broken up. The actual infra can be owned by municipalities. > Price for rent is not governed by landlord's costs but by what the tenant can bear. Citation needed. There is competition amongst landlords as long as housing supply is not severely limited. If…

You can have competition among landlords but you can't provide the key ingredient of which there is fixed supply - land. No more land + people moving in = price only goes up.

> The flat I just started renting a few months ago was priced on supply-and-demand, not on how much I earn (otherwise the landlord did a pretty terrible job of gouging me because relative to my income I got a good deal).

A single example doesn't prove or disprove anything. You haven't mentioned cases for example of many others who are living on level of bare sustainability in the same city. You cannot apply micro analysis to understand this problem by citing individual cases. You need macro analysis for this.

Zoning is not enough of a solution because it doesn't deal with the underlying problem - city land supply.

Maybe tech workers will no longer need to live in the cities after covid crisis. That still doesn't make it a casr for the rest of the society and cannot serve as a basis for ignoring the issue.

Cherry-picking only some monopolies which are currently under scrutiny doesn't fix the problem either. Land monopoly is the biggest one out there and is not mentioned. Fixing the others without considering this one is merely applying a bandaid on a blister while the patient's artery is bleeding.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#722

Post by Frondo » Fri, May 22, 2020, 9:31 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #717

Frondo wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are 12 US cities that have achieved "functional zero" homelessness -- no chronic homelessness and no homeless vets. The country of Finland has done the same, with a plan to reach absolute zero (nobody staying temporarily with friends or relatives) by 2022. Right now, over there, with 5.5 million people, 500 people don't have permanent housing of their own. Does that count?

> 500 people don't have permanent housing of their own. I.e. it's inadequate.

You said: "I'm not aware of any social problem that has been adequately resolved by any organization, government or private. There's always someone who thinks it's not good enough."

If you think that 500 people out of 5.5 million -- who aren't sleeping on the street, but have access to shelter and only lack their own permanent housing, with a plan to house them in the next two years -- is "inadequate," that's a you problem, not a "no social problem has adequately been resolved by any organization" problem.

Try surfing, man. It might relax you.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#723

Post by BasedCode » Fri, May 22, 2020, 9:34 PM UTC

bhupy wrote: post #718

BasedCode wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Average life expectancy is a really flawed metric to measure the effectiveness of healthcare systems, because there are a ton of non-healthcare related confounding variables that impact average life expectancy. Anyone that dies early brings down the average life expectancy, and that includes suicides, homicides, drug overdoses, and car accidents. The US has more traffic fatalities per capita than any other Western…

Again, it's debatable, but as I continued in my comment, even when charitably accepting your premise, your argument loses its strength. A fully socialized healthcare system is one of many implementations of universal healthcare in the developed world today, and you'll have to find an answer for why the most efficient system in the world is the one that just happens to rely the most on consumer-driven market mechanism…

Perhaps but then you also have to consider that Singapore is such an outlier that maybe comparing with them is overlooking what universal healthcare system is more likely to really be possible to politically implement.

Chasing that vision of efficency that Singapore shines a light on likely only serves to distract from other universal systems that are more commonly provided that are more realistically achievable.

Singapore is so far off the scale close to Hong Kong that it suggests they have political, social, geographical conditions that can not be replicated.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#724

Post by bhupy » Fri, May 22, 2020, 10:02 PM UTC

BasedCode wrote: post #723

bhupy wrote: post #718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, it's debatable, but as I continued in my comment, even when charitably accepting your premise, your argument loses its strength. A fully socialized healthcare system is one of many implementations of universal healthcare in the developed world today, and you'll have to find an answer for why the most efficient system in the world is the one that just happens to rely the most on consumer-driven market mechanism…

Perhaps but then you also have to consider that Singapore is such an outlier that maybe comparing with them is overlooking what universal healthcare system is more likely to really be possible to politically implement. Chasing that vision of efficency that Singapore shines a light on likely only serves to distract from other universal systems that are more commonly provided that are more realistically achievable. Sin…

That’s not what “outlier” means. If every country attempted to implement Singapore’s system, and only Singapore succeeded, then you would be correct that it is an outlier. Instead, other nations settled for different systems and are generally satisfied. There lacks a political will to move out of the local optima.

Singapore’s path to its current system wasn’t by accident. It tried an NHS style system, which failed due to overuse, then tried a US-style system, which failed for obvious reasons, and then settled onto the system it has today.

The US is in the unique position that someone else has tried this model and we have enough data to prove its superiority. There also appears to be enough political will to reform the current system. There’s no point in settling for local optima when we have more than enough information to be able to go all the way...

There’s actually no evidence whatsoever that it “cannot be replicated”, there is little about Singapore, geographically that uniquely lends it to such a system. Suggesting otherwise is just ignoring an inconvenient data point. You’re also conveniently ignoring Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Germany which have a significant degree of privatization in their healthcare systems. Pure socialization isn’t the only way, it’s not even the best way.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#725

Post by klmadfejno » Fri, May 22, 2020, 10:42 PM UTC

JoeSmithson wrote: post #714

klmadfejno wrote: post #708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, not necessarily. In fact if they were able raise prices, surely they would have done so already? What they would actually do is either go without a janitor, or go without something else - a coffee machine, or computer upgrades or something. I think you're underestimating the necessity of janitors, but for the sake of arguments, let's switch to another low paid shitty job that's definitely necessary. Say... slau…

Why wouldn't raising the minimum wage have the same effect?

Raising the minimum wage:

* Only affects those at the very bottom

* Does not require more new government spending than any project ever before

* Doesn't create any incentives for people, especially low skilled, low wage, but necessary labor

The last point is perhaps the most important. All the low skilled workers are still going to do their jobs. Prices might rise a bit, some companies might choose to layoff some workers, and at scale globalization may still take a toll; but you don't have the terrifying risk that half of your low level workforce decides they're ok to just relax or acquire more skills.

It's not as impactful as the lofty goals of UBI for sure... but the only way society is going to work with poor people not requiring a job to survive is if they agree, wholly in spite of their best interests, to work the shitty jobs anyway.

There's plenty of middle-ground with similarly minded goals, like paying people to stay at home and raise their kids that make plenty of sense. UBI is cool if we don't need poor people... but we do, and we probably always will. The ideal strategy recognizes this and instead tries to minimize harm done to poor people as a result of poverty

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#726

Post by malandrew » Sat, May 23, 2020, 12:15 AM UTC

Avicebron wrote: post #422

malandrew wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"wage slavery" is such a disingenuous weasel word term. There's no slavery involved at all. Involvement is purely voluntary and you're free to leave at any time.

Here we go again. People are not always in a position to leave a job. People are living paycheck to paycheck and not able to get other jobs. You're being disingenuous.

"Slavery is any system in which principles of property law are applied to people, allowing individuals to own, buy and sell other individuals, as a de jure form of property."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery

Living paycheck-to-paycheck or hand-to-mouth like most humans lived for most of human history does not make one a slave. To state otherwise is to compare mere existence to slavery.

Unless someone is an actual slave under bondage or with threat of coercion from another person, they are always in a position to leave a job. Doesn't mean they are free of consequences, like no longer getting money because they are no longer willfully trading their labor for compensation, the same way that someone farming the land will stop reaping the benefits of their labor once they stop engaging in farming behavior or if someone living as a hunter/gatherer will stop collecting sustenance when they stop hunting and gathering. At no point are any of those people slaves because no coercion is involved.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#727

Post by malandrew » Sat, May 23, 2020, 12:17 AM UTC

rapnie wrote: post #421

malandrew wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"wage slavery" is such a disingenuous weasel word term. There's no slavery involved at all. Involvement is purely voluntary and you're free to leave at any time.

And go to the food banks?

- to food banks

- to another job

- to a friend or relative

- to somewhere where they can farm or hunt/gather

The mere existence of any options they can pursue at any time without permission is testament that it isn't slavery.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#728

Post by nyhc99 » Sat, May 23, 2020, 1:37 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #493

nyhc99 wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bob needs to work because Bob wants to buy nicer things and lead a fuller life than sitting around playing video games in a dirty shack like Fred. Bob's work isn't subsidizing Fred's lifestyle unfairly (at least under Yang's proposal) because the UBI is paid for by a tax on consumption (the VAT)

I suggest you and Andrew Yang start giving Surfer Fred a cut of your paychecks every month. I bet the idea palls after you pass Fred hurrying to the beach with his surfboard as you drive to work.

Apparently you don't understand what a tax on consumption is.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#729

Post by BasedCode » Sat, May 23, 2020, 2:14 AM UTC

bhupy wrote: post #724

BasedCode wrote: post #723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps but then you also have to consider that Singapore is such an outlier that maybe comparing with them is overlooking what universal healthcare system is more likely to really be possible to politically implement. Chasing that vision of efficency that Singapore shines a light on likely only serves to distract from other universal systems that are more commonly provided that are more realistically achievable. Sin…

That’s not what “outlier” means. If every country attempted to implement Singapore’s system, and only Singapore succeeded, then you would be correct that it is an outlier. Instead, other nations settled for different systems and are generally satisfied. There lacks a political will to move out of the local optima. Singapore’s path to its current system wasn’t by accident. It tried an NHS style system, which failed du…

So then what are the friction points of the Singaporean healthcare model that prevents other countries from adopting it?

If it were a Bill up for a vote by politicians in the US then what issues would they have with it?

Also comparing healthcare costs of Germany, Netherlands, and Switzerland with the UK from the links I posted earlier clearly shows that socialised healthcare is more efficient.

The per capita cost in Germany ia 32% higher than the UK, Netherlands it is 28% higher, and in Switzerland it is a whopping 88% higher compared to the UK.

Even France and Greece which are more socialist than the UK and both also have national insurance schemes are much better value than their private counterparts.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#730

Post by thysultan » Sat, May 23, 2020, 2:20 AM UTC

xwdv wrote: post #707

thysultan wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you wanted to do away with garbage trucks you'd build a tunnel system for trash bins that discharge their contents when prompted.

Very dangerous if a child falls in. Will never happen.

We already have underground chambers akin to this.