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Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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421–430 of 746 posts

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#421
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re treating people wanting to live cheaply without a job as a negative situation that should be avoided, then I don’t think you’re in a mindset to be evaluating UBI specifics correctly. You should just be wholesale against it. The whole point is to free people from wage slavery. You’re worried that it will work! On an even broader level though, location caused cost of living differences being taken in to accou…

"wage slavery" is such a disingenuous weasel word term. There's no slavery involved at all. Involvement is purely voluntary and you're free to leave at any time.

And go to the food banks?

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#422
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re treating people wanting to live cheaply without a job as a negative situation that should be avoided, then I don’t think you’re in a mindset to be evaluating UBI specifics correctly. You should just be wholesale against it. The whole point is to free people from wage slavery. You’re worried that it will work! On an even broader level though, location caused cost of living differences being taken in to accou…

"wage slavery" is such a disingenuous weasel word term. There's no slavery involved at all. Involvement is purely voluntary and you're free to leave at any time.

Here we go again. People are not always in a position to leave a job. People are living paycheck to paycheck and not able to get other jobs. You're being disingenuous.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not the OP, but I would like to see some UBI studies that are at least permanent (per participant), if not universal. It’d be a lot more interesting to me to see what happens when 30 people get $1,000/mo for the rest of their lives than what 20,000 people do with an extra $250 once.

You could run a test case in a low income country where 5 million goes a long way. For example, the median per-capita income in India is $600/yr[1]. You could use this money to provide 3,000 people with $300/yr for 5 years. https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/median-income-by...

True.. I’d probably rather do $120/yr for 3,000 people for life (as opposed to just five years). Assuming $120 is equivalent to $12,000 in the US, and for life is going to be more interesting than even five years. And at 7% interest you could afford this forever off the $5M endowment.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#424
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yang definitely waffled on MFA and appeared to not support it towards the end. That was something of him that I was disappointed - I couldn't understand why he didn't realize that MFA is the way to go. I do wonder if he waffled on it to retain support from people further to the right. That said, I actually think Yang's ideas are going to reverberate throughout political discourse over the next decade. Similar to how…

Retraining is not the answer (and I don't know what is). Many of the jobs killed by automation were things people could command a reasonably high salary to do, but did not need extensive training for (these are referred to as "good jobs"). Offering the same salary (or even more), but requiring multiple years of training, just isn't going to fly with these people.

Creating new jobs is the answer. The question is whether you think rich CEOs and capital owners or a wide, empowered middle class are the best to come up with those jobs.

Tech should know better. The best thing Apple et al. ever did for their platforms was to open them to the ingenuity of the masses, and keep the barriers to entry low enough that they didn't discourage new ideas from blossoming. The market economy isn't an end unto itself; it's a platform on which goods are developed and needs can be identified and met.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#425

Technically speaking , many European countries already have "Basic Income". ( France , Sweden , Norway...) They are reserved for individuals "Not Active" though ( Unemployed and not looking for a Job ) over a certain age. Those "BI" massively lower poverty , which usually massively reduce crime-rate , drugs related usage etc... With 700€/Month you aren't gonna far anyway, you have enaugh for food and rent , and that'…

>Having "UBI" in US would create a skyrocket inflation because worker who are paid 10$/Hour would drop their work and stay at home and do something that is more profitable for them. Unless you have some hard data, your argument doesn't seem very convincing. The numbers could easily work out in any way, and it would probably depend on the actual amount of UBI you use, because the effect on the workforce and the spendi…

> Unless you have some hard data, your argument doesn't seem very convincing.

Seeing as plenty of people are earning more with the federal unemployment compensation than they would if they were working full time, I'm not sure what exactly is "unconvincing" about it.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#426
post #415

UBI can have a place if the payout is controlled by the federal reserve as a means to enact inflation. Taking it from other people's earnings and spending it through a committee of politicians sounds pretty dystopian to me though.

>Taking it from other people's earnings and spending it through a committee of politicians sounds pretty dystopian to me though.

Assuming you're American: you do know that the House and Senate have Appropriations Committees who do literally just that, right? If you're not American, I bet you a dollar your government has a similar grouping of politicians.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Direct from yangs site ( https://www.yang2020.com/policies/value-added-tax/ ) > This VAT would vary based on the good to which it's applied, with staples having a lower rate or being excluded, and luxury goods having a higher rate. That's the beauty of a VAT. It can be tuned to reach the desired result.

> That's the beauty of a VAT. It can be tuned to reach the desired result. But who will do the tuning? My guess, as a former corporate tax lawyer, is that it would be done by industry lobbyists, seeking preferential treatment for their clients' products.

Yea that's the problem with tuning these things, same with tarrifs, just leads to companies having a rational reason to spend money on lobbyists. IMO the VAT would be much simpler as a flat tax than trying to tune it, but it's not as popular with people who then complain when the price of goods go up (despite the fact that you'd have to be spending something like $120k a year in order to offset the losses of a 10% VAT with 100% pass-through (in Europe it's only 50%) with a $12k/year UBI)

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#428

UBI is inevitable. Like software development, whoever makes it first will win and bring us closer to our Star Trekian furute.

Are you sure were are not heading towards The Expanse ;P Here's one counter argument for UBI. Who will do all the boring work needed for building a dam / apartment ? If we are honest about it, most of this boring, physically harmful and repetitive infrastructure work is only done by the working class that chooses to do it because the alternative is begging. It's because of the threat of extreme poverty and unemployme…

The author of the expanse himself clarified that Basic is not UBI http://www.scottsantens.com/the-expanse-basic-support-basic-...

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#429
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yang definitely waffled on MFA and appeared to not support it towards the end. That was something of him that I was disappointed - I couldn't understand why he didn't realize that MFA is the way to go. I do wonder if he waffled on it to retain support from people further to the right. That said, I actually think Yang's ideas are going to reverberate throughout political discourse over the next decade. Similar to how…

Retraining is not the answer (and I don't know what is). Many of the jobs killed by automation were things people could command a reasonably high salary to do, but did not need extensive training for (these are referred to as "good jobs"). Offering the same salary (or even more), but requiring multiple years of training, just isn't going to fly with these people.

Retraining is part of the answer. For professional jobs (in the classic sense) continuous training is a core tenant of remaining current in the field and if applicable maintaining licensure. The faster technology moves, the more everyone should be thinking about how careers will be in a constant state a flux. Not just retraining from a factory job to some service job, but every few years basically having a role that has morphed into something new. We need institutions, practices, and norms that reflect the new normal of high-technical change.

Many historical blue-collar jobs that have been automated (or even things like farming before it) were much higher-skill than most people give credit for. It is just that the training and general knowledge available to perform well were more ambiently available. An example today is working with standard business software. You don't get trained in office and excel, you get trained on how they are used in the company's specific workflows. Companies also had more on the job training and apprenticeships.

So I also don't know what do with the wave of truckers that will be automated away with self-driving big-rigs (presuming that happens) but I think the future is one where we don't actually have as many folks dedicated to one line-of-work where such a jarring transition is necessary. Or perhaps the corollary, that we should aim for that more dynamic approach to prevent further disruption of big discontinuities

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even universal has winners and losers. How do you deal with different cost of livings between Bay Area and Mississippi? If the UBI is not adjusted and covers living expenses in cheap areas but not expensive areas, then people might decide to live cheaply without a job. That risks creating slums. If it's adjusted to locality, then areas will grow and dwindle based on accuracy of those adjustment tables. Which would tu…

People are free to move to lower cost of living areas. In fact, many would argue this is a benefit of UBI and will bring much needed economic resources to under populated parts of the country. Not everyone needs to live in the Bay Area. COL adjustment to UBI would be a huge mistake and undermine the entire concept.

> People are free to move to lower cost of living areas. I

That's probably NOT what is going to happen if you implement UBI. Rather people complaining UBI is too low for the place they are currently living in. Well known phenomenon.

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