Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income • Hacker News Board

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#171

Post by HappySweeney » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:07 PM UTC

bt1a wrote: post #120

hadtodoit wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here but I really wish he wouldn't kowtow every time some wackjob group is screaming at him. He took a very moderate and reasonable stance on a lot of contentious topics during his campaign then rolled them back within a day of getting lit up by twitter trolls. I think he lost a large section of centrist voters by appearing spineless. He took the best policies from the left and right, but also seemed obligated t…

Yang definitely waffled on MFA and appeared to not support it towards the end. That was something of him that I was disappointed - I couldn't understand why he didn't realize that MFA is the way to go. I do wonder if he waffled on it to retain support from people further to the right. That said, I actually think Yang's ideas are going to reverberate throughout political discourse over the next decade. Similar to how…

Retraining is not the answer (and I don't know what is). Many of the jobs killed by automation were things people could command a reasonably high salary to do, but did not need extensive training for (these are referred to as "good jobs"). Offering the same salary (or even more), but requiring multiple years of training, just isn't going to fly with these people.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#172

Post by hadtodoit » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:08 PM UTC

HideousKojima wrote: post #156

hadtodoit wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people actually survive on that one check. Alaskans are fiercely independent for the most part, and those living outside the main cities are typically self-sustainable. They own their land, hunt for their meat, grow their veggies, trade for what they don't have, and spend whatever money they do have on the essential tools to sustain that.

How would that work in a city where an acre costs millions?

Unlikely that someone paying a million an acre would want to hunt for their meals. Alaska works because people are self-reliant but community bonds are incredibly strong. Beyond a certain population density, that type of community doesn't work.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#173

Post by monocasa » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:08 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #109

gpm wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... let's say 500k people, 10k a year, 10 years, that's 50 billion dollars. That's... not a small test. That's a small city deciding to go all in on trying it.

Yes, but you need a self-contained economy to test and prove things out.

There are no self contained economies anymore.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#174

Post by seph-reed » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:08 PM UTC

mattbeckman wrote: post #170

UBI (in the U.S.) would be like printing more shares of a publicly-traded stock and giving all of the new stock to the employees of the company. USD is the reserve currency, so foreign interests (or large corps) w/ stockpiles of USD will be the losers due to inflation. Foreign interests can change which reserve currency they use at-will, so wouldn't this be like a direct-fee/dividend U.S. citizens (or any UBI-country…

Think of machines and robots as workers that earn pay for their work. Then imagine that pay is spread back into the economy (like payed workers do), rather than just sitting in the robot owners account to "trickle down." Another way of putting this: Slavery (or automation) are really great for the upper class who owns, but destroys the livelihoods of everyone below who has to compete.

Follow up question: How many inventors created their world changing machine in dreams of making more money for the upper class, vs how many dreamed to help all of humanity?

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#175

Post by lukemichals » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:10 PM UTC

MikeKusold wrote: post #144

lukemichals wrote: post #106

Announced on https://open.spotify.com/episode/1xb2GYUPxoGAprDj3G4Idz?si=A... I've got to say, I've moved almost entirely to consuming information via podcasts and Yang Speaks is one of my top ones. 1. Find some smart people/organizations you trust 2. Listen to them daily

You can also directly listen or subscribe to his podcast here: https://yangspeaks.com/ I refuse to support what Spotify is trying to do to the podcast market.

> I refuse to support what Spotify is trying to do to the podcast market.

What are they trying to do?

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#176

Post by tgv » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:10 PM UTC

So literally a solution in search of a problem.

A living income guarantee has my blessing, but UBI doesn't. It's either too low, and there's still need for welfare, unemployment benefit, etc., or so high that the (unpredictable) consequences can completely overwhelm the advantages.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#177

Post by seph-reed » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:10 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #163

cheeseomlit wrote: post #136

If the government starts giving me enough money each month to subsist while drastically raising taxes on my earnings from employment then I'll simply stop working. I would imagine most people would do the same.

If the government provided food, shelter, and video games, I expect quite a few people would see no purpose in working. Also the surfers and backpackers.

Good for them. The point of work is to not have to anymore so you can follow your passions. We've invented machines that can do basically everything it takes to support human life. Seems like there should be a lot more people following passions now.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#178

Post by donw » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:11 PM UTC

graham_paul wrote: post #148

cheeseomlit wrote: post #136

If the government starts giving me enough money each month to subsist while drastically raising taxes on my earnings from employment then I'll simply stop working. I would imagine most people would do the same.

> I'll simply stop working For a few months maybe. Soon, you will realise that to keep your previous lifestyle (or to simply fill your time with something other than browsing text-heavy sites) you need to work. So you will go back to work. And so will everyone else.

What happens if a large number of people can not afford a meaningfully better lifestyle than what is possible on a UBI because of the tax increases?

(Genuine question, no gotchas here)

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#179

Post by lukemichals » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:12 PM UTC

cheeseomlit wrote: post #136

If the government starts giving me enough money each month to subsist while drastically raising taxes on my earnings from employment then I'll simply stop working. I would imagine most people would do the same.

> taxes on my earnings

Yangs proposal was a VAT, which wouldn't be a tax on your earnings. Am I off here?

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#180

Post by mydongle » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:12 PM UTC

hobs wrote: post #97

toohotatopic wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't said 'find a rich benefactor', but 'be the benefactor'. There is no need to be rich. Spouses stay at home and are not worried if their partner has a regular job. It doesn't have to work for everybody. For starters, find somebody who can handle the risk of you losing your job. Of course people are happier if they get rich. But that's not what UBI is about. The question is: do people need a monetary buffer to…

You mean like children? Children need you to support them for years as a buffer before they can get on with life. Society benefits as a whole when we foster the development of proper adults. If the development to making them a net contributor is not done yet, why would we stop?

Hey, that's angle I've never thought about before.

We support children for years and all we expect them to do is go to school. While a lot of kids could decide to just not work and be taken care of by their family, the vast majority want to work anyway, if only for the fact they want to move out and build their own family.

This may be the key. UBI + Making people go through further education so that they can have the foundation of knowledge and skills to be able to work. Right now, we have a lot of people who go through years of school and in the end it amounts to nothing because no one will give them a real job unless they had the money and a stable environment that allowed them to go to fancy universities instead of being forced to work to provide for themselves. This is a 3 angle attack. UBI + education/training + lowering the barrier for people being able to get a job. With UBI, you will have substantially less people desperate to get any job, so the supply of workers is no longer so high that companies can afford to be picky, because people will be able to tell those companies to go fuck themselves.