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Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#411

Post by nyhc99 »

WalterBright wrote: post #215
seph-reed wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good for them. The point of work is to not have to anymore so you can follow your passions. We've invented machines that can do basically everything it takes to support human life. Seems like there should be a lot more people following passions now.

> The point of work is to not have to anymore so you can follow your passions. So Bob needs to work so Fred can follow his passion for surfing and video games?

Bob needs to work because Bob wants to buy nicer things and lead a fuller life than sitting around playing video games in a dirty shack like Fred.

Bob's work isn't subsidizing Fred's lifestyle unfairly (at least under Yang's proposal) because the UBI is paid for by a tax on consumption (the VAT)

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#412

Post by malandrew »

jbc1 wrote: post #407
grayfaced wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even universal has winners and losers. How do you deal with different cost of livings between Bay Area and Mississippi? If the UBI is not adjusted and covers living expenses in cheap areas but not expensive areas, then people might decide to live cheaply without a job. That risks creating slums. If it's adjusted to locality, then areas will grow and dwindle based on accuracy of those adjustment tables. Which would tu…

If you’re treating people wanting to live cheaply without a job as a negative situation that should be avoided, then I don’t think you’re in a mindset to be evaluating UBI specifics correctly. You should just be wholesale against it. The whole point is to free people from wage slavery. You’re worried that it will work! On an even broader level though, location caused cost of living differences being taken in to accou…

"wage slavery" is such a disingenuous weasel word term. There's no slavery involved at all. Involvement is purely voluntary and you're free to leave at any time.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#413

Post by zdragnar »

cableshaft wrote: post #360
arcticfox wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not bad, it just misses a lot of the benefit of 'basic' income. For example, my wife had just finished her education and was looking for a job when COVID hit. She's randomly just as hosed as everyone that actually lost an existing job, but qualifies for none of the same relief. The benefit of the 'universal basic' part of UBI is that it just washes away all edge cases, and it's pretty hard to feel like you've be…

Andrew Yang's Humanity Forward organization is not the nation's government. They don't have the resources to make something universal. That's one of the reasons he ran for president, was so he could do that. The people weren't ready this time, but maybe in 4 years, when he's probably going to run again, they'll be more willing to give him a shot. But right now he is doing what he can and working with much, much more…

> That's one of the reasons he ran for president, was so he could do that.

That requires an act of congress. Literally the only thing the president would have to do with it is signing a piece of paper.

Running for president gave the idea a bit of a platform, and just cemented the idea as so far out there that no-one need ever take it seriously.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#414

Post by DanBC »

zelly wrote: post #387
Reedx wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't replace people making things, though. You'd still want to work and create value to improve your situation. It'd just function as a floor and provide some stability. Bearing in mind the increasing rate of job destruction and creation. We're no longer in a world where you can rely on being able to have the same profession your whole life. Having that floor would be useful to smooth those transitions out, and…

There are countries with a permanent dole. See the UK and other Northern Euro nations. You just have to fake an autism diagnosis to get $3k euros a month in cash alone (not counting all the other programs). Why isn't that the entrepreneurship capital of the world? Why is Europe still so poor? Why is America--the only place where there isn't a safety net and you can literally die on the street if you make too many bad…

> See the UK and other Northern Euro nations. You just have to fake an autism diagnosis to get $3k euros a month in cash alone (not counting all the other programs).

In the UK we have a variety of disability benefits. Someone starting a claim today is probably going to apply for New Style ESA. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-style-employment-and-support...

> If you have been found to have limited capability for work, you will move onto the ‘main phase’ for New Style ESA and you will get the basic allowance, plus a ‘support component’ if you are put in the support group.

> basic allowance (standard rate) – up to £74.35 (per week)

> support component – £39.20 (per week)

((74.35 + 39.20) * 52) / 12 = £492.05 per calendar month. That's €550 per month.

To qualify for this with autism you'll need to persuade your GP to give you a referral to local MH services, and persuade them to give you a referral to an autism assessment service, and then you'd need to persuade two specialist healthcare professionals that you have autism. That will give you the diagnosis. However, the Department for Work and Pensions will use their own independent healthcare professionals and you'll need to pass that assessment. That's not seeing if you're autistic or not, that's seeing if you have impairments in your day to day life that interfere with your ability to work. These functional assessments are carried out every 3 years.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#416

Post by kyleee »

moduspol wrote: post #352
zozbot234 wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn't cash be the benchmark when it comes to aiding poor folks? If giving food or shelter really is more helpful than just giving the equivalent cost in cold hard cash, that will be quite interesting. But let's see the proof of that.

They don't have the financial literacy skills to manage it properly. I'm not trying to be unreasonably judgemental, and I don't mean things like bond rates or yield curves. Things like making sure you have enough dollars at the end of the month to make a rent payment. Making sure the check gets written so it actually happens. Keeping track of automated withdrawals and ensuring the number stays above zero with the tim…

that's a deeply cynical and paternalistic mindset

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#417

Post by bsanr2 »

wincy wrote: post #336
nawitus wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every single proposed UBI was either insufficient to cover people's basic needs, obscenely expensive, or both. I don't think that's true. In a really simple model imagine UBI of $2000/month given for everyone. Then imagine increasing income taxes by $2000 for all employed workers. Then the true cost would be difference between current unemployed benefits of the UBI, which shoudln't be obscenely expensive (in normal…

But it wouldn’t be $2000 per worker, as you’d have to get enough tax money to pay the people who aren’t working that $2000. If I make $6000 a month and you make $0 a month, and then we both get $2000 a month from my taxes, how can my take home pay remain $6000?

Well, it would be you and several of your peers making $6000 a month, one or two people making an order of magnitude more per month, and a whole heckuva lot of people making $3k-$4k a month, contributing a progressively bigger portion to the one person making $0. So, no, you don't hang on to the full $6000... But then you may get it back from taxing the capital holdings of those people who own exceptionally large amounts of private property.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#418

Post by chillacy »

chrisco255 wrote: post #377
fullshark wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> UBI seems like it would be the most powerful vote-buying weapon ever created in the hands of any government given the opportunity to implement it. What's the difference between debating over UBI and increasing/decreasing taxes with regard to buying votes? Truly universal as you say there's only one question re: UBI what's the monthly payment? With tax code there's a million different loopholes and special interest…

Because the earnings part comes before the tax part, which is the proper order of operations. In order to produce earnings, our system dictates that you do something economically useful. That's not a perfect system, but it has produced the modern economy and for all its flaws, no economy in history has produced as much wealth as exists today. I am highly skeptical of UBI. The U.S. is the last place that should try it…

I see UBI as more of a response to the existing conditional welfare system which already exists and circumvents this system in the most perverse way where you can make _more_ money on disability than doing something economically useful. At least with UBI you can eliminate these incentive gaps.

Doesn't have to be UBI either, a NIT could do the same thing, maybe even the EITC as long as it keeps the earning curve monotonic.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#419

Post by chillacy »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #162
Press2forEN wrote: post #110

Years ago, proponents of UBI claimed that it was a replacement for all other forms of social welfare. Now it appears by most proposals to be yet another means-tested add-on. What happened?

People studied the UBI idea and recognized the costs of giving money to everyone are so enormous that it's unworkable. That's there the means testing has come in to try to limit that. Something more like a "guaranteed minimum income" where you can't have less money than what is required to have a good standard of living is a cheaper and more effective idea that accomplishes the same goals of ending poverty.

A means tested NIT and a UBI can be designed to be equivalent: https://taxfoundation.org/universal-basic-income-ubi-means-t...

A guaranteed minimum income would need to phase out by income, so as to not discourage people from working if they want to.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#420

Post by jpindar »

fullshark wrote: post #364
nogabebop23 wrote: post #256

>> Yang says Humanity Forward plans to immediately distribute Dorsey’s contribution in the form of small cash grants of $250 to nearly 20,000 people who’ve lost their jobs or taken an economic hit as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic So money based on certain non-universal conditions? Isn't this one of the root problems? People cannot accept a truly universal system - you've already got too much; that guy lives in th…

> UBI seems like it would be the most powerful vote-buying weapon ever created in the hands of any government given the opportunity to implement it. What's the difference between debating over UBI and increasing/decreasing taxes with regard to buying votes? Truly universal as you say there's only one question re: UBI what's the monthly payment? With tax code there's a million different loopholes and special interest…

You can't buy a sandwich with a piece of paper that says your taxes are going to be lower next year (especially when you don't have much income to be taxed).
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