Live data from Hacker News

Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

yahoo.com

621–630 of 746 posts

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#621
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which means employers will have to pay more for those jobs Yeah no kidding so there will be hyperinflation. Making the net effect of UBI almost zilch. What use is $1000 bucks when toilet paper is $100 a roll. > 3) Because of (2), more research effort and investment will go into automating and otherwise reducing the number of humans required for unpleasant jobs. And with UBI, that becomes an unmitigated good, with n…

There would still be markets and competition. There would be some baseline price increase when people stop being exploited. At a certain point equilibrium will be met and someone will come along with cheaper toilet paper. The difference will be there are more consumers in a safe position to make purchasing decisions.

Competitive markets will probably be fine. There seems to be enough automation in manufacturing businesses driving the prices down.

How do you deal with monopoly businesses? What prevents them from rising prices to pocket sudden excess of UBI money?

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#622

Years ago, proponents of UBI claimed that it was a replacement for all other forms of social welfare. Now it appears by most proposals to be yet another means-tested add-on. What happened?

> What happened? > Now it appears by most proposals to be yet another means-tested add-on.

"Universal" means not means-tested. That hasn't changed.

What happened is that those who promoted UBI in order to achieve their objective of dismantling the social safety net and reducing overall taxation and government expenditure lost interest in it for many reasons.

First, and most important, the UBI supporting right largely returned to the standard economic platform of the right, since the political changes in 2016 resulted in many of their goals being achieved, including the attacks on Obamacare and food stamp programs, and the massive tax cuts for the very wealthy.

Second, they couldn't really explain UBI to others in the mainstream right. Simply cutting the safety net to punish "lazy" people who leech off the system is, and has always been, an easier line to sell politically vs "we consolidate all the existing safety net expenditures, cut them by x% by dismantling the bureaucracy, and distribute the cash as UBI, for a net reduction in total expenditure". UBI is economics nerd stuff on the right, a clever scheme and experiment whose costs would be ultimately paid by others who were less fortunate - in the form of reduced overall benefits.

Those who were left supporting UBI (no pun intended) were those who see it as one tool among many needed to reduce inequality, not as a way to further reduce government assistance to struggling people. They believe the cost should be payed by greater taxation on the wealthy, and their support is rooted in their beliefs about what a more just society would look like. Their perspective was further bolstered by Andrew Yang's advocacy, and the measures being taken now due to covid19. Therefore their perspectives on UBI have become the dominantly heard perspectives on UBI.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#623
post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the option to buy cheap food from the government. But then why do you need this at all? There is already food available in the market. If you have $300 you can buy it. There is nothing the government needs to do other than give you the $300. > The government just needs to provide the bare minimum. Broke an arm? Goverment will cast it. There is a pretty good argument that the local government should provide emer…

> There is already food available in the market. Leave it to capitalism to inflate UBI out of usefulness. Let the market compete with the baseline, never replace it. > you don't get any of it and end up having to pay $18,000 Well, supply and demand should work here, right? Isn't the market the mythical machine of just prices? If the market won't pay taxes + $8,000 for private school, there will be no schools for that…

> Leave it to capitalism to inflate UBI out of usefulness. Let the market compete with the baseline, never replace it.

Okay sure, but that's probably what would happen. So what do you do when the government tries to sell food and not enough people buy theirs for them to stay in the black? They'd have to raise prices to cover fixed costs and then have even fewer customers. Presumably once the price was so high they had literally zero customers then you could shut it down?

> Well, supply and demand should work here, right? Isn't the market the mythical machine of just prices? If the market won't pay taxes + $8,000 for private school, there will be no schools for that price. If it does, it is worth it and you'll pay.

The problem isn't that private schools aren't worth $8000, it's that they aren't worth $8000 more than public schools. Which leads people to send their kids to public school and waste money (public schools cost $10,000 instead of $8000) in order to get something worse (people don't value private schools at $8000 more than public schools but do value them at $2000 more).

> "Losing everything" now would mean just going back to surfing the web and eating government cheese in some cramped apartment. Not homelessness, starvation, abuse and neglect.

The UBI does that without the government providing anything but the money. If you have money you can buy food, housing and internet in the market from anyone you like.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#624
post #477

UBI should cover government-regulated and government-provided essentials to living. Ex.: * Government housing: $500 * Government basic food package - daily (1500kcal): $300 * x kJ electricity, x m3 water, x m3 gas, x bps internet connection: $500 * Clothing, hygiene, cleaning supplies: $50 * Universal healthcare: free (and free condoms) * Free education (from abc to PHD) This is not a comprehensive list, or even the…

Even at $1500/mo, this will cost at least $150B/mo. That’s almost additional $2T/yr. This is still not taking in to account free medical care and education. How do you think govt will pay for this? I think UBI is possible sometime in future when US GDP grows by another 50% and if somehow not all gains gets concentrated to top 1000 richest people which ironically UBI proponents like Dorsey, Altman etc are part of.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#625
post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree - it should be Universal Basic Stuff (UBS). Particularly if housing is in a low cost of living area, then everything should get cheaper through automation. High End Manufactured housing [1], MOOCs, Telemedicine, Consumer Products will all get cheaper. Entrepreneurs in SV can create robots to automate the production of these things so even more UBS categories can be added. UBS assurances will avoid the…

Housing has been made artificially scarce by the small property owners (homeowners) who have the most to gain from the situation. The government could make housing 3x-5x cheaper in the space of a decade by greatly curtailing the authority of local zoning boards.

Fannie Mae could auction off all of the foreclosed homes on their books. This would decrease the cost of housing immediately.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#626
post #477

UBI should cover government-regulated and government-provided essentials to living. Ex.: * Government housing: $500 * Government basic food package - daily (1500kcal): $300 * x kJ electricity, x m3 water, x m3 gas, x bps internet connection: $500 * Clothing, hygiene, cleaning supplies: $50 * Universal healthcare: free (and free condoms) * Free education (from abc to PHD) This is not a comprehensive list, or even the…

UBI needs to be framed more as a dividend. It isn't the safety net. It is profit sharing.

Based on what profit? The U.S. economy is on life support and its printing $3+ trillion deficits with massive incoming unfunded liabilities and a shrunken worldwide economy. We are due for a world of hurt and economic pain for the next decade.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#627
post #157

UBI only makes sense in the science fiction world that Andrew Yang and other non-technical journalists think is somehow imminent. We still need people to make things. There are still guys hanging off the side of garbage trucks every day and people still pick fruits by hand. If no one does these things, you will starve and die. We cannot survive forever on financial engineering by bureaucrats and importing all our nec…

They already press ganged inmates into picking up trash in New Orleans when the sanitation workers went on strike, don’t give them any more ideas

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#628
post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't get it. The cost of labor would rise. You would have to pay paper factory workers more when they could just not work at all. The truck driver also needs to get paid more. The shelf stocker also needs to get paid more. The security guard needs to get paid more. Eventually you get $100 toilet rolls. > At a certain point equilibrium will be met and someone will come along with cheaper toilet paper. Yes, from o…

What amount of UBI gets us to $100 toilet rolls?

Consider wages 10xing and taxes becoming over 50% and it's not hard to see how firms would have to charge more money for their products just to remain in business.

UBI is central planning of the economy, where the government decides the market value of you simply existing is worth $1000 a month or whatever. Whenever the government thinks they are smart enough to set prices for things, historically people end up dying of hunger. The value of the dollar will collapse unless other countries also adopt UBI, but of course that wouldn't be possible since UBI in America would hinge on cheap overseas labor. Only WE are allowed to be lazy bums! At some point the dollar would disconnect from intrinsic value and no longer represent money, because people are being given it simply for existing. One day we we would show up to the Chinese or Mexican port asking for a ship full of All The Things We Need To Survive and they throw us away because they don't want our monopoly money. That's when the music stops and the real panic begins.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#629
post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t a negative income tax mean that the credit gets progressively larger as you earn more money? This would not be the desired effect. I think the desired effect is simply a refundable tax credit, and then you can adjust the existing progressive tax rates as needed.

Interesting questions, but I think GP used the shortened form of "negative income tax bracket".

No. A negative income tax is a well established principle. It can be implemented as a bracket, but it can also be implemented as a tax credit or in a fully progressive tax system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#630
post #389
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Propaganda. Nope it’s not. In order for welfare to be « legalized » , and for taxpayer to accept that their money will go to «Non-Active» individuals it’s necessary to have a cultural fit between the two. You cant tax like Norway or France ( 40% overall ) if people believe that you should work to earn a living, it’s not right to do so. American would never accept such sky high taxe rate if it cause against their be…

A very high progressive tax is compatible with the belief that people should work to earn a living. If I have a lot of money, I can invest it and for almost no work grow my wealth or get another income stream. How is that fair? And why does this observation often get left behind?

How is that unfair?
Post reply on HN