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Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#371

Post by zhoujianfu »

fullshark wrote: post #364
nogabebop23 wrote: post #256

>> Yang says Humanity Forward plans to immediately distribute Dorsey’s contribution in the form of small cash grants of $250 to nearly 20,000 people who’ve lost their jobs or taken an economic hit as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic So money based on certain non-universal conditions? Isn't this one of the root problems? People cannot accept a truly universal system - you've already got too much; that guy lives in th…

> UBI seems like it would be the most powerful vote-buying weapon ever created in the hands of any government given the opportunity to implement it. What's the difference between debating over UBI and increasing/decreasing taxes with regard to buying votes? Truly universal as you say there's only one question re: UBI what's the monthly payment? With tax code there's a million different loopholes and special interest…

To be fair, there are a few other questions...

Is it monthly or weekly/bi-weekly/quarterly/annually?

Does universal include children under 18? Non-citizens? If so, for the same amount?

Can you borrow against your UBI or allow others to take liens?

How do you actually register and get the money?

But that’s about it I can think of!

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#372

Post by wlesieutre »

stevens32 wrote: post #368
wlesieutre wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Eisenhower put it Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children... This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cl…

Beautiful quote. Thanks for sharing.

It's a heck of a speech, made after Stalin died

https://millercenter.org/the-presidency/presidential-speeche...

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#373

Post by JoeAltmaier »

fullshark wrote: post #364
nogabebop23 wrote: post #256

>> Yang says Humanity Forward plans to immediately distribute Dorsey’s contribution in the form of small cash grants of $250 to nearly 20,000 people who’ve lost their jobs or taken an economic hit as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic So money based on certain non-universal conditions? Isn't this one of the root problems? People cannot accept a truly universal system - you've already got too much; that guy lives in th…

> UBI seems like it would be the most powerful vote-buying weapon ever created in the hands of any government given the opportunity to implement it. What's the difference between debating over UBI and increasing/decreasing taxes with regard to buying votes? Truly universal as you say there's only one question re: UBI what's the monthly payment? With tax code there's a million different loopholes and special interest…

Its troubling to imagine the negotiations that might get restrictions put in place, to further political wrangles. If the 'U' is not there, then its just another program to manage with a huge bureaucracy. Instead of the great leveler and simplifier it could be.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#374

Post by kzrdude »

zhoujianfu wrote: post #371
fullshark wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> UBI seems like it would be the most powerful vote-buying weapon ever created in the hands of any government given the opportunity to implement it. What's the difference between debating over UBI and increasing/decreasing taxes with regard to buying votes? Truly universal as you say there's only one question re: UBI what's the monthly payment? With tax code there's a million different loopholes and special interest…

To be fair, there are a few other questions... Is it monthly or weekly/bi-weekly/quarterly/annually? Does universal include children under 18? Non-citizens? If so, for the same amount? Can you borrow against your UBI or allow others to take liens? How do you actually register and get the money? But that’s about it I can think of!

The citizen question is so very hard, because in practice, non-citizens are numerous and very vulnerable. Cementing UBI for citizens only, would construct a gulf state like two tier society.

Eligibility for the UBI will always be contested. Would it not make it even harder for immigration laws as well?

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#375

Post by zhoujianfu »

cableshaft wrote: post #360
arcticfox wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not bad, it just misses a lot of the benefit of 'basic' income. For example, my wife had just finished her education and was looking for a job when COVID hit. She's randomly just as hosed as everyone that actually lost an existing job, but qualifies for none of the same relief. The benefit of the 'universal basic' part of UBI is that it just washes away all edge cases, and it's pretty hard to feel like you've be…

Andrew Yang's Humanity Forward organization is not the nation's government. They don't have the resources to make something universal. That's one of the reasons he ran for president, was so he could do that. The people weren't ready this time, but maybe in 4 years, when he's probably going to run again, they'll be more willing to give him a shot. But right now he is doing what he can and working with much, much more…

I’m not the OP, but I would like to see some UBI studies that are at least permanent (per participant), if not universal.

It’d be a lot more interesting to me to see what happens when 30 people get $1,000/mo for the rest of their lives than what 20,000 people do with an extra $250 once.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#376

Post by matthewbauer »

mydongle wrote: post #363
jedberg wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigrants means anyone in the US that isn’t a citizen. Legal residents would not get UBI until they become citizens.

Why wouldn't we allow legal residents to receive it?

Without the right to vote, I think it would be hard to get much political will for it. Even if we started out giving it to noncitizens, it would be the first thing cut in budget cuts.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#377

Post by chrisco255 »

fullshark wrote: post #364
nogabebop23 wrote: post #256

>> Yang says Humanity Forward plans to immediately distribute Dorsey’s contribution in the form of small cash grants of $250 to nearly 20,000 people who’ve lost their jobs or taken an economic hit as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic So money based on certain non-universal conditions? Isn't this one of the root problems? People cannot accept a truly universal system - you've already got too much; that guy lives in th…

> UBI seems like it would be the most powerful vote-buying weapon ever created in the hands of any government given the opportunity to implement it. What's the difference between debating over UBI and increasing/decreasing taxes with regard to buying votes? Truly universal as you say there's only one question re: UBI what's the monthly payment? With tax code there's a million different loopholes and special interest…

Because the earnings part comes before the tax part, which is the proper order of operations. In order to produce earnings, our system dictates that you do something economically useful. That's not a perfect system, but it has produced the modern economy and for all its flaws, no economy in history has produced as much wealth as exists today.

I am highly skeptical of UBI. The U.S. is the last place that should try it, it should be experimented on in a country like New Zealand or Italy... not on an economy like the U.S., which could bring down world trade if UBI ends in economic catastrophe, such as hyperinflation, which is a very real possibility.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#378

Post by wesammikhail »

smalltalks wrote: post #217

Technically speaking , many European countries already have "Basic Income". ( France , Sweden , Norway...) They are reserved for individuals "Not Active" though ( Unemployed and not looking for a Job ) over a certain age. Those "BI" massively lower poverty , which usually massively reduce crime-rate , drugs related usage etc... With 700€/Month you aren't gonna far anyway, you have enaugh for food and rent , and that'…

> Technically speaking , many European countries already have "Basic Income". ( France , Sweden , Norway...)

No they have social safety nets not UBI. You are equating two ENTIRELY different concepts.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#379

Post by zhoujianfu »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #355

I could see UBI as an alternative to federal government spend. E.g. every time I hear about the U.S. sending billions to the middle east, I wonder how much more effectively it could be spent in the hands of thousands upon thousands of americans. It’s almost like implementing something closer to direct democracy instead of representative republic democracy in regards to spending...

Yeah, I think UBI should/would/could actually be very popular from a small government perspective as well.

What if a republican ran on the platform that “if elected, I will make it a law that 10% of all federal revenue must be directly distributed equally to all citizens. Then is grows 5% a year until it hits 80% in 2036!”?

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#380

Post by zelly »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #228
zelly wrote: post #157

UBI only makes sense in the science fiction world that Andrew Yang and other non-technical journalists think is somehow imminent. We still need people to make things. There are still guys hanging off the side of garbage trucks every day and people still pick fruits by hand. If no one does these things, you will starve and die. We cannot survive forever on financial engineering by bureaucrats and importing all our nec…

1) The "U" in "UBI" means that working another job does not stop you from receiving UBI, which means it may still make sense to do so if you want more income. UBI is supposed to be enough to live on, not enough to have everything you might want; there are at least preliminary results that show UBI doesn't stop people from working. 2) UBI will tend to mean less people willing to work low-paying unpleasant jobs, which…

> which means employers will have to pay more for those jobs

Yeah no kidding so there will be hyperinflation. Making the net effect of UBI almost zilch. What use is $1000 bucks when toilet paper is $100 a roll.

> 3) Because of (2), more research effort and investment will go into automating and otherwise reducing the number of humans required for unpleasant jobs. And with UBI, that becomes an unmitigated good, with no worry about putting people out of work.

So there will be a giant underclass of people who live on nothing but UBI (UBIers) while a small minority of elite researchers in corporate labs come up with more ways to keep the UBIers from earning their own living. Great. And who buys all the stuff? Is the "stuff" just for the gilded class smart enough to work? Or do we just give the UBIers a raise every now and then to "stimulate" the economy? How is this not communism?

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