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Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#591
UBI is abhorrent to me in principle, no matter the practical effects. If by killing a baby I could end climate change right now, I still wouldn't do it. Because the act itself is bad, the consequences are irrelevant.

Forcibly taking money from some people according to a progressive income tax system, and giving it unconditionally to others is unacceptable. Even if it would improve the life of a million people it should not be done.

An alternative: people who want UBI to be real, why don't you sign an agreement amongst yourself to contribute to a fund that will pay out UBI to your group? Why involve the government and all the coercion that entails?

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#592
post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> UBI should cover government-regulated and government-provided essentials to living. The reason you don't do this is that the government is not better at making diapers and laundry detergent than Procter & Gamble nor better at manufacturing Tylenol than Johnson & Johnson nor better at growing tomatoes than local farmers. If you give people $300 then they can buy $300 worth of food. if you give people $300 worth of "…

You are misunderstanding me. The government gives you $300 and makes sure that enough healthy food is available for those $300. You don't get $300 worth of food. You get money. Cold hard cash. And the option to buy cheap food from the government. Companies can also make cheap food targeting those $300, and I'm sure there already exists non-government government cheese. About education and healthcare. The government j…

> And the option to buy cheap food from the government.

But then why do you need this at all? There is already food available in the market. If you have $300 you can buy it. There is nothing the government needs to do other than give you the $300.

> The government just needs to provide the bare minimum. Broke an arm? Goverment will cast it.

There is a pretty good argument that the local government should provide emergency medicine for the same reason they provide fire departments -- you can't choose a provider while you're bleeding out. But most medical care is not provided under emergency conditions.

> Want a better education for your kids? Homeschool if you can, or just work for more money and pay for one.

But that's the problem. The government takes $10,000 from you and then gives it back if you use their schools. If you want to use your school and it only costs $8000, not only do you not get the $2000 back, you don't get any of it and end up having to pay $18,000 for what should have cost you $8000. So your school doesn't just have to be better than the government's school, it has to be so much better that it's worth paying twice. There is no legitimate reason to impose that requirement instead of allowing people who don't use the government's school to get back the money they saved the taxpayer.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#593
post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> provide coverage for $5000/year with a $10,000 deductible, instead of $10,000/year with no deductible. that's the wrong way to think about it. The above makes an implicit assumption that by doing this you "save" $5000/yr because the insurance company is "more efficient". That's wrong - you actually cost $5000 (this being the "profit" the insurance company makes if you _didn't_ need the medical treatment that year).…

> Under the gov't version, if you were healthy, you're "free". You only cost when you actually need the medical treatment. Government insurance is still insurance. It isn't that each individual costs the government $10,000, it's that most cost them nothing and one in ten gets cancer and costs $100,000. Insurance is the same. The large majority of the money isn't going to the insurance company, it's going to healthcar…

> The large majority of the money isn't going to the insurance company, it's going to healthcare providers.

I have upvoted you but on HN, the prevailing belief is that doctors are gods and insurance companies are evil.

The data clearly shows that, on the average, insurance companies lose money while hospitals charge a 10000% markup - that's right, a 10000% markup.

I have written extensively on this topic (see my Quora) but I am finding it incredibly challenging getting people to see the reality.

Because I am often a contrarian here I am no alien to the downvote silence system here on HN - it's likely you can't respond to this comment of mine because HN won't let you for a few hours.

My email is in my profile, would love to connect with you - a person aware of reality.

Thank you

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#594
post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's literally untrue. It's built on people spending money. If there is no trade, there is no economy. This fetishism with "work" as a proxy for the value of the human life which performs the work is a very American concept with corollaries in only a couple other countries. This is not the norm and certainly not a healthy way to look at labor and the economy.

> It's built on people spending money Money is a recent invention, and economies have flourished without it. Money facilitates trade, increases liquidity, and reduces friction in transactions. > This fetishism with "work" as a proxy for the value of the human life which performs the work It is not a proxy for the value of a human life. It is a representation of the value of the labor of that human. Americans are very…

Compensation is a representation of bargaining power. If anything, compensation for labor has an inverse relationship with actual value. Teachers get paid little despite educating future generations, sanitation workers contribute more to the public health than doctors but make peanuts, and stay-at-home parents nurture children and are paid nothing at all. Bargaining power is not value of labor.

We are paid what can demand and not a penny more irrespective of our labor's actual value.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#595
post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> provide coverage for $5000/year with a $10,000 deductible, instead of $10,000/year with no deductible. that's the wrong way to think about it. The above makes an implicit assumption that by doing this you "save" $5000/yr because the insurance company is "more efficient". That's wrong - you actually cost $5000 (this being the "profit" the insurance company makes if you _didn't_ need the medical treatment that year).…

> Under the gov't version, if you were healthy, you're "free". You only cost when you actually need the medical treatment. Government insurance is still insurance. It isn't that each individual costs the government $10,000, it's that most cost them nothing and one in ten gets cancer and costs $100,000. Insurance is the same. The large majority of the money isn't going to the insurance company, it's going to healthcar…

you've cleverly argued in a way to make hidden the major point i wanted to make - which is that insurance companies making a profit is a loss to the payer. I'm purely talking about the insurance system, and not the medical provider system (hospitals/doctors etc).

> The large majority of the money isn't going to the insurance company, it's going to healthcare providers.

Any money going into insurance as profit is a loss to the payer - insurance doesn't _provide_ value. If the gov't is the one "doing the insurance" as you say, then any profit from that operation will count as a lowered cost of providing medical treatment.

> allows people to make risky/unhealthy choices and socialize the costs of those choices, and therefore why high deductible insurance is more efficient by introducing at least some price sensitivity.

so therefore, insurance companies will pick out the least risky people, least unhealthy, and not allow the sick into their programs. That is exactly what you see today, because those more ill people are what saps the profits.

The price sensitivity is at the wrong end - it should be at the medical provider end, not at the insurance end. Why do you think the cost for treatment is low when you're covered under medicare (for low income people)? It's because medicare is such a large buyer that hospitals are able to sell their services at that low a price.

> This is equivalent to legislating prices. They can already do this regardless, but it's a bad idea for the same reason price controls in general are

no it's not price control. It's buying power, from a single entity that is not profit-driven. The market for medical treatment is unchanged under my model. Insurance companies currently all own their own little monopoly in their region/network, and hence, there's no competition for pricing the medical treatment today. You are forced into the insurance's monopoly (or face the higher ticket price hospitals charge because they can).

> why wouldn't the insurance companies be doing it too? > ... if the government really is so much more efficient then they should easily be able to out-compete the insurance companies

Insurance companies provide efficiency in operation vs gov't perhaps - i don't know. But what efficiency they provide is taken out as profit instead of being passed on to customers. And insurance company's efficiency is not in lowering the cost of medical care - it's in finding customers that don't cost them more than premiums they charge. They are more incentivized to keep medical costs high to force people onto insurance plans (that they negotiate using their purchasing power)!

There is no real place in the world for a profit-making medical insurance company imho. Or, if there is, they will be _in addition_ to a tax-payer funded universal healthcare system, and they can provide non-medically necessary operations that are not covered by the universal system.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't say that at all He alluded to how those systems being over-regulated and broken prevent the usual economic factors from working. E.g. if you don't allow people to build new houses in certain places then that makes it quite easy for housing prices to go up in those areas

Then let’s fix those first before talking about UBI.

There's no reason we can't implement UBI asynchronously

For what it's worth, of all of these solutions, UBI is the one that requires the least overhead, by far. Housing requires actually building houses. Education means making broad structural changes to many different levels of the whole system

UBI, as it has been mainstreamed, is literally just playing a trick within the money/accounting/tax system to lift people out of poverty. This will have a positive spill-over effect into other stuff

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#597
Is this a solution in search of a problem? I'm not trolling, but asking this honestly.

This is actually the article's tldr:

Exactly what is the problem? Precisely how does UBI solve this specific problem?

There are examples of focused government programs achieving specific goals, and there are examples of programs with non-specific goals which merely become self-perpetuating.

I think from the shear scale of the federal government's power, it should be turning a profit and paying dividends to citizens. That would be UBI. But that is a way bigger issue and off topic.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#598
post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Under the gov't version, if you were healthy, you're "free". You only cost when you actually need the medical treatment. Government insurance is still insurance. It isn't that each individual costs the government $10,000, it's that most cost them nothing and one in ten gets cancer and costs $100,000. Insurance is the same. The large majority of the money isn't going to the insurance company, it's going to healthcar…

you've cleverly argued in a way to make hidden the major point i wanted to make - which is that insurance companies making a profit is a loss to the payer. I'm purely talking about the insurance system, and not the medical provider system (hospitals/doctors etc). > The large majority of the money isn't going to the insurance company, it's going to healthcare providers. Any money going into insurance as profit is a lo…

It's really even worse than that. The amount of money spent on medical billing is just obscene. It isn't "profit" for anyone, but it's vast inefficiency.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#599
post #157

UBI only makes sense in the science fiction world that Andrew Yang and other non-technical journalists think is somehow imminent. We still need people to make things. There are still guys hanging off the side of garbage trucks every day and people still pick fruits by hand. If no one does these things, you will starve and die. We cannot survive forever on financial engineering by bureaucrats and importing all our nec…

The point is to compensate these vital workers properly and give them some leverage in negotiations with their employer. That's what a UBI does, it makes the life of your fruit-picking wage slave a little more bearable.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#600
The narrative for UBI is strong enough, the details on its policy and implementation isn't. I think there's a couple of major initiatives that people need to take:

1) Give UBI to a small county / city for 1 year and study its economic and social impact.

Do the full 12k, $1000 a year grant to a small city. With a 30k population, that's around $500m dollars with research overhead?

One goal (among others) is to show how the money improves the local economy and gets earned back by the government / taxes, since that is a significant part of UBI's way of paying for itself.

2) Create a more robust policy for paying for it.

I want a document that is 50-300 pages long and covers EVERYTHING I can think of, like, 1) what exactly is excluded in the VAT tax? 2) Charts of consumption levels and how much you'll end up paying, with examples of actors at each level. 3) How much does Amazon, Facebook, Google, etc, actually pay for UBI? 4) What is the breakdown of where UBI money comes from in the economy? 5) What are contingency plans for if we have a deficit? Print money? Loan? 6) What are the contingency plans for if we have a permanent deficit, year over year? Inflation?

3) Find out the answer to the harder questions truthfully. The easy questions are things like, "will poor people be grateful for extra money?" The answer is obviously yes. The harder questions are things like "What % of people will spend their UBI on drugs and alcohol?"

You don't want to just brush aside the hard questions and treat them like roadblocks. If it turns out that UBI becomes people's weed stash, you have to look yourself in the eye and say "did we mess up". Of course, we could create policy to limit that behavior, but that comes from addressing the hard questions.

4) I would love personas that detail what the "average" US citizen's economic situation looks like with the population representation. Even if this is more fiction than fact, I think knowing about a Bob Smith who makes X amount of money, spends X on the following, has the following monetary problems, and by the way, is emblematic of another 2-5 million people in the US, would be really helpful for me to understand what the point of UBI is, since I'm not one of the primary users. 15+ of these kinds of profiles would be really cool to read especially if they cover the 70% of Americans living paycheck to paycheck.

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