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Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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571–580 of 746 posts

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#571
post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is a representation of the value of the labor of that human. By withholding economic power until someone provides "labor" as defined by the state, and leaving them embedded in an economy which requires money to survive, you are directly tying the value of the human life to the value of their labor. > giving to charities Interesting, probably has a lot to do with the low taxes and high amount of disposable income…

> probably has a lot to do with the low taxes and high amount of disposable income. A young lady I used to know was the kindest person I ever met. She didn't have much, but would donate a few dollars to every charity that called. They had her number, and called her all the time. She was the real deal, not one of those people who are only generous with someone else's money. > you are directly tying the value of the hu…

"Plenty of people will voluntarily give food to a hungry person."

Not enough, with the amount of hunger that's present in the richest country in the world.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#572
post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> UBI should cover government-regulated and government-provided essentials to living. The reason you don't do this is that the government is not better at making diapers and laundry detergent than Procter & Gamble nor better at manufacturing Tylenol than Johnson & Johnson nor better at growing tomatoes than local farmers. If you give people $300 then they can buy $300 worth of food. if you give people $300 worth of "…

> provide coverage for $5000/year with a $10,000 deductible, instead of $10,000/year with no deductible. that's the wrong way to think about it. The above makes an implicit assumption that by doing this you "save" $5000/yr because the insurance company is "more efficient". That's wrong - you actually cost $5000 (this being the "profit" the insurance company makes if you _didn't_ need the medical treatment that year).…

> Under the gov't version, if you were healthy, you're "free". You only cost when you actually need the medical treatment.

Government insurance is still insurance. It isn't that each individual costs the government $10,000, it's that most cost them nothing and one in ten gets cancer and costs $100,000. Insurance is the same. The large majority of the money isn't going to the insurance company, it's going to healthcare providers.

> By making medical treatment a tax payer funded scheme, the cost of an unhealthy society is spread out amongst all.

This is literally the definition of how insurance works. It's also why insurance sucks, because it allows people to make risky/unhealthy choices and socialize the costs of those choices, and therefore why high deductible insurance is more efficient by introducing at least some price sensitivity.

> Not only does this give the gov't buying pressure to lower the margins of all medical treatments

This is equivalent to legislating prices. They can already do this regardless, but it's a bad idea for the same reason price controls in general are. How do you determine what the price should be? Too high and you're overpaying, too low and you force providers to lower the quality of care to meet the price target. If this was so easy then why wouldn't the insurance companies be doing it too?

> it also makes a policy pressure for gov't to give preventative measures for good health outcomes (like legislating low sugar foods, or incentivize exercise and good diet etc).

Couldn't they do this anyway? Also, wouldn't they have the opposite incentives, because then the companies making blood pressure medicine or whatever would lobby against any such programs, and be more proficient lobbyists because they're already dealing with the government to begin with?

And if the government really is so much more efficient then they should easily be able to out-compete the insurance companies and other healthcare providing systems on fair terms in a competitive marketplace, right?

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#573
post #477

UBI should cover government-regulated and government-provided essentials to living. Ex.: * Government housing: $500 * Government basic food package - daily (1500kcal): $300 * x kJ electricity, x m3 water, x m3 gas, x bps internet connection: $500 * Clothing, hygiene, cleaning supplies: $50 * Universal healthcare: free (and free condoms) * Free education (from abc to PHD) This is not a comprehensive list, or even the…

I'd be curious to see it play out in a smaller country for a few years. The U.S. is a big place to gamble on it. No one is saying flip the switch for 328.2 million, I know that, but at the same time it would be best to do an MVP on a smaller scale with, say, a population of 5 million and then learn and iterate from there. Even when testing with 5 million though, you often have countries of that size having more of a…

Even if it works brilliantly in other places, you'll still have a big part of the US saying "it'll never work here, we're too different" etc. Same arguments as the metric system that's been great everywhere for such a long time.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#574
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) The "U" in "UBI" means that working another job does not stop you from receiving UBI, which means it may still make sense to do so if you want more income. UBI is supposed to be enough to live on, not enough to have everything you might want; there are at least preliminary results that show UBI doesn't stop people from working. 2) UBI will tend to mean less people willing to work low-paying unpleasant jobs, which…

> which means employers will have to pay more for those jobs Yeah no kidding so there will be hyperinflation. Making the net effect of UBI almost zilch. What use is $1000 bucks when toilet paper is $100 a roll. > 3) Because of (2), more research effort and investment will go into automating and otherwise reducing the number of humans required for unpleasant jobs. And with UBI, that becomes an unmitigated good, with n…

There would still be markets and competition. There would be some baseline price increase when people stop being exploited. At a certain point equilibrium will be met and someone will come along with cheaper toilet paper.

The difference will be there are more consumers in a safe position to make purchasing decisions.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#575
post #166
post #157

UBI only makes sense in the science fiction world that Andrew Yang and other non-technical journalists think is somehow imminent. We still need people to make things. There are still guys hanging off the side of garbage trucks every day and people still pick fruits by hand. If no one does these things, you will starve and die. We cannot survive forever on financial engineering by bureaucrats and importing all our nec…

This is anecdotal but I haven’t seen guys hanging off garbage trucks in a long time. Around here it’s just one guy with a hydraulic arm on the truck that picks up the cans and dumps out garbage, and he does it very very efficiently. Pretty soon it should be possible to even replace the driver with a self driving truck that goes around pre determined paths in the neighborhood.

If you wanted to do away with garbage trucks you'd build a tunnel system for trash bins that discharge their contents when prompted.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#576
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Just like Krugman's QE! How am I going to get back my devalued savings once we find out it doesn't work, all savers have been ruined and fiat money has no value? There's no need to test it on any scale, including small, because it can't work.

Savers aren't entitled to a return. No one is entitled to fiat holding or increasing in value. The utility value of capital is declining, plain and simply. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/700-year-decline-of-interes... https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/policy_and_exchange_rates/ke... https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/INTDSRJPM193N http://www.nationalbanken.dk/en/marketinfo/official_interest... https://www.riksbank.se…

Yeah, they’re entitled to a loss through inflation-based monetary policy and debasement.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#577
I see why a government would want to to make as many people as possible dependent on them.

I fail to see why any normal people would argue for it, though--and perhaps even why Jack Dorsey would.

I hope it won't happen while I'm still alive, but I definitely see a lot of countries becoming totalitarian nightmares in the next decades, with these genius ideas being dreamed up more and more often.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#578
post #157

UBI only makes sense in the science fiction world that Andrew Yang and other non-technical journalists think is somehow imminent. We still need people to make things. There are still guys hanging off the side of garbage trucks every day and people still pick fruits by hand. If no one does these things, you will starve and die. We cannot survive forever on financial engineering by bureaucrats and importing all our nec…

> We still need people to make things. There are still guys hanging off the side of garbage trucks every day and people still pick fruits by hand. If no one does these things, you will starve and die. Sure. There are also millions of unemployed and disabled people who don't work, and we haven't suddenly starved and died. On the contrary, we just throw away billions of pounds of food each year[1]. So it seems that the…

> Meanwhile, though, people are starving and dying, in the US, at higher levels than any other industrialized nation, because our social safety net is inadequate.

Yes the death rate is higher in US than a lot of other countries, but overall it is quite low. According to this page [0], it's .64 per 100,000. As of May 20th the population was 329,672,928 [1]. Comes to a total of about 2110 people or 0.0000064 of the population. While tragic nonetheless, is an extremely small number.

[0] https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/malnutrit...

[1] https://www.census.gov/popclock/

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the earnings part comes before the tax part, which is the proper order of operations. In order to produce earnings, our system dictates that you do something economically useful. That's not a perfect system, but it has produced the modern economy and for all its flaws, no economy in history has produced as much wealth as exists today. I am highly skeptical of UBI. The U.S. is the last place that should try it…

As Henry Ford said, cars will never go anywhere, because, for all their flaws, no mode of transportation in history has been more efficient than the train.

If you think welfare or government handouts are some new technology that's going to usher in a new era, I've got some history books for you to read.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#580
post #541
post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what if someone spends it all on whiskey or oxy? They're maximising their own preferences. If they were addicted to alcohol, sudden withdrawal can kill. One of the big reasons for UBI is the belief that an individual can better assess their own needs and wants, and procure them more cheaply than the government. This is partly a moral/philosphical stand - the tension is between giving individual freedom in the form…

I agree very strongly with you, but I don't think that's where the parent poster was going. Imagine we have a UBI, and we do all kinds of other smart things -- end the War on Drugs, establish Bismarck-style national healthcare[1], all that. Let's do a thought experiment. What happens when Alice blows all of her UBI on Lady Lee Vodka and Oxy. Nothing left for rent, food, the rest. Nobody else in the picture to help: n…

Alice could get a job and then lose it all on vodka and oxy. I don’t see why UBI needs to ensure that she doesn’t do foolish things with her money.

People are going to make bad decisions, unfortunately. You can’t live in a free society if you don’t let people make unfortunate, bad decisions that harm themselves.

If you think all people should be protected from their bad decisions then you’re basically sliding straight down the slope into totalitarianism.

In a free society, some people will make bad decisions and their lives will be miserable but hopefully many more will make better decisions.

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