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Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#61

Post by JoeSmithson »

macspoofing wrote: post #53
JoeSmithson wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one, it removes pathological situations where people are disincentivised to work because it would mean they lose means-tested support. The great unknown is whether it also disincentivises work itself in a way that would be a negative overall. The general idea is that it removes the threat of poverty, which potentially allows people to make more rational decisions, and negates the need for cruder solutions like mi…

>it removes pathological situations where people are disincentivised to work because it would mean they lose means-tested support. That's a problem with how welfare is structured, that can be fixed with changing welfare. >The great unknown is whether it also disincentivises work itself in a way that would be a negative overall Why would you think it wouldn't? >which potentially allows people to make more rational dec…

> "That's a problem with how welfare is structured, that can be fixed with changing welfare."

That's what UBI is...? UBI is changing welfare to not be means-tested.

> "Why would you think it wouldn't?"

There are many reasons to think it wouldn't. For example, lots of people work two jobs. People work full time when they could work part time. Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos etc all still work. The vast majority of people in a modern economy work more than they need to in order to earn what a UBI would pay.

The rest of your post is not relevant to the question you originally asked ("What is the actual case for Basic Income?")

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#62

Post by Ididntdothis »

happytoexplain wrote: post #15
Ididntdothis wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI has a lot of practical problems. Why not start at universal health care or wider affordability of affordable housing and education? Without that any UBI will immediately be eaten up by rising prices in these areas.

It seems to me that many people are trying desperately to push all of these proposals, and it's been a borderline immobile uphill battle on all fronts. If any of these gain traction, we should celebrate, rather than accusing people of not yet achieving the others. It also makes sense that UBI would be the first to reach the staging phase, since it's the easiest to explain and the easiest to implement. Of course, your…

"Of course, your concern is still totally valid if UBI will indeed be pointless without the other problems solved. I just wanted to point out how easy it is to say "start with universal health care and affordability of housing and education". That's a huge thing to "start with", and in fact we're already deep into the fight for them. "

If you can't solve these issues, UBI simply can't work. It's basically a distraction from urgent problems that should and could be solved now but may cost money. Considering that UBI is often pushed by billionaires I wonder if that's the secret plan.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#63

Post by JoeAltmaier »

MiroF wrote: post #29
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better question: why would it? Economics is complicated. In a free market there's no way to distinguish 'UBI money' from any other kind. Try jacking your price up - somebody else will have a sale and eat your lunch.

But if everyone has more liquidity access, that drives prices up. You don't have to do something like distinguish UBI money for this to be true.

Again, more buying means more production and reduced costs due to volume. Driving prices down. This happens too. As well a a dozen other things.

Economics is complicated. Playing dot-to-dot across the space with cherry-picked examples is not very useful.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#64

Post by macspoofing »

ImprobableTruth wrote: post #38
macspoofing wrote: post #10

What is the actual case for Basic Income? I hear that it 'solves' the problem of automation ... except that it doesn't actually solve it AT ALL. If automation will lead to high unemployment, basic income will do nothing for that. It will send cash to people who aren't working so they can provide for basic necessities, but our welfare state already does that. And we know that segments of society that are wholly depend…

UBI with a progressive tax is just welfare without the bureaucratic overhead. Even in countries where there already is a strong welfare state, I'd bet that UBI would be an improvement due to reducing the stress of applying for unemployment benefits.

>UBI with a progressive tax is just welfare without the bureaucratic overhead.

Who says UBI replaces a single welfare program? Any support that UBI gets from the left is under the assumption that it is an ADD-ON to the existing welfare state. The people employed in the administration of the welfare programs will also fight tooth-and-nail from losing their jobs.

So UBI is just another cost on top the mountain of costs.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#65

Post by Ididntdothis »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #6
Ididntdothis wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI has a lot of practical problems. Why not start at universal health care or wider affordability of affordable housing and education? Without that any UBI will immediately be eaten up by rising prices in these areas.

That's a common urban legend. The free market drives prices down, when demand goes up for flexible markets. It's easy to throw one or two economic terms around, but its a lot more complicated than 'people have more money == prices rise'.

“people have more money == prices rise'.”

I believe in markets with scarce goods and no alternatives this is the case. In healthcare you have no alternatives. And as long as housing supply is short, you have no alternatives there either. So people end up paying whatever is being asked for.

In other markets more money won’t raise prices because the purchase is optional and there are competing alternatives.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#66

Post by [deleted] »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #63
MiroF wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if everyone has more liquidity access, that drives prices up. You don't have to do something like distinguish UBI money for this to be true.

Again, more buying means more production and reduced costs due to volume. Driving prices down. This happens too. As well a a dozen other things. Economics is complicated. Playing dot-to-dot across the space with cherry-picked examples is not very useful.

[deleted]

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#67

Post by troughway »

What is stopping companies that make money (to pay for UBI through tax increases) from leaving the country to elsewhere with lower taxation? Where would this money come from then?

If things do get automated it means labor is no longer needed to be sourced locally, making it much easier to uproot and go elsewhere.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#68

Post by LarryDarrell »

ravenstine wrote: post #44

I don't understand the optimism around UBI. UBI is a band-aid and a sign that a system is actually failing. I get why some people, especially intellectuals, want UBI, but they seem to believe that UBI is free of consequence. If society "needs" UBI, that means that not enough people can build wealth or that the welfare system isn't effective. Handing people money isn't going to change the fact that too much of the eco…

The optimism comes from a desperate desire not to confront the need for universal healthcare or land reform.

As long as real estate is an investment and health care has a middle man, UBI is just a subsidy for those sectors.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#69

Post by Pfhreak »

ImprobableTruth wrote: post #46
Pfhreak wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a leftist person who isn't an opponent of ubi, but is an opponent of Yang's ubi. I have no problem with raising taxes, but I do have other concerns. Namely, if everyone got $x,xxx a month, how do we ensure that rents don't just go up by that amount or wages don't go down by that amount? I worry that without a well thought out plan, UBI just ends up funneling money directly back to the wealthy (eg, landlords and b…

Do you believe welfare is similar in that regard? If not, why?

No. Healthy public housing, universal healthcare, free public transit don't have the same ability for the benefits to be converted to income for a landlord.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#70

Post by Ididntdothis »

twic wrote: post #30
throwaway_jobs wrote: post #5

I don’t think there is any good way to test UBI at any small scale, I think there needs to be a critical mass of people who can pay their housing and food costs how society and economic activity would be reshaped under such a system.

What if you did it in some moderately isolated place, like Alaska? Alaska already has almost-universal not-quite-basic income: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund

The annual dividend is around $1000. I wouldn’t call this UBI exactly.
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