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Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#21

Post by luckylion »

Infinitesimus wrote: post #13
paulcole wrote: post #3

Why can’t we outsource basic income to the private sector? Like VCs who give money to people who want to sit at home instead of lighting money on fire to exploit taxi drivers?

VCs primarily care about outsized monetary returns and you don't get that from giving money to people. Tax-deductible charitable donations are probably the closest way to incentivize the private sector but VCs was more, not just to stay flat and most businesses don't make decisions for "the greater good" over more $$. Can you think of a way to incentivize private experiments in UBI?

> Can you think of a way to incentivize private experiments in UBI?

Contracts that guarantee the recipient will pay X% of their income to the UBI source over the next Y years. Claims are that people's creative and productive power will be unleashed. If true, their income will rise dramatically, and they'll pay lots of "taxes" back to the UBI source.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#22

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

exabrial wrote: post #8

Which is incredibly charitable! Opponents to UBI only oppose the income source being tax; which is a forced wealth transfer (opposite of my money my choice).

No. We oppose it because its a back door to communism.

Once 51% of people can vote themselves their own pay, what makes you believe they wont vote themselves any type of increase they want.

Mob rule is a step closer to tyranny and this is is.

The tyranny of the 51%

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#23

Post by ImprobableTruth »

ketanmaheshwari wrote: post #11
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a common urban legend. The free market drives prices down, when demand goes up for flexible markets. It's easy to throw one or two economic terms around, but its a lot more complicated than 'people have more money == prices rise'.

I am really curious to learn more about why UBI will not drive the prices up. Could you indicate any articles that elaborate on this?

It's not directly UBI, but strong welfare programs don't seem to drive up rent prices. Since UBI with a corresponding progressive tax is equivalent to welfare, I'd assume it'd have similar results.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#24

Post by sokoloff »

macspoofing wrote: post #10

What is the actual case for Basic Income? I hear that it 'solves' the problem of automation ... except that it doesn't actually solve it AT ALL. If automation will lead to high unemployment, basic income will do nothing for that. It will send cash to people who aren't working so they can provide for basic necessities, but our welfare state already does that. And we know that segments of society that are wholly depend…

> segments of society that are wholly dependent on government suffer despair, drug/alcohol abuse and crime

Is there a causal relationship in the direction implied by this sentence?

There's a correlation among unemployment, drug/alcohol abuse, depression, crime, homelessness, suicide, and probably several other negative things in society. It's hard to tease out the causal linkages, meaning that if something like UBI allows some people to quit their jobs, it's not clear that that quitting would have the same correlation to depression/abuse/suicide as today's sources of joblessness do.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#25

Post by MiroF »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #6
Ididntdothis wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI has a lot of practical problems. Why not start at universal health care or wider affordability of affordable housing and education? Without that any UBI will immediately be eaten up by rising prices in these areas.

That's a common urban legend. The free market drives prices down, when demand goes up for flexible markets. It's easy to throw one or two economic terms around, but its a lot more complicated than 'people have more money == prices rise'.

> That's a common urban legend.

Try foundational macroeconomic principle. But it wouldn't even get that far, the Fed would just raise rates to offset the would-be increase in aggregate demand.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#26

Post by Descartes1 »

throwaway_jobs wrote: post #5

I don’t think there is any good way to test UBI at any small scale, I think there needs to be a critical mass of people who can pay their housing and food costs how society and economic activity would be reshaped under such a system.

Exactly

If any subgroup is given extra capital, the test will appear to work. This is patently obvious to anyone with half a brain.

Wealth is always and everywhere a measure of disparity.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#27

Post by toomuchtodo »

Proven wrote: post #16
throwaway_jobs wrote: post #5

I don’t think there is any good way to test UBI at any small scale, I think there needs to be a critical mass of people who can pay their housing and food costs how society and economic activity would be reshaped under such a system.

Really? Just like Krugman's QE! How am I going to get back my devalued savings once we find out it doesn't work, all savers have been ruined and fiat money has no value? There's no need to test it on any scale, including small, because it can't work.

Savers aren't entitled to a return. No one is entitled to fiat holding or increasing in value. The utility value of capital is declining, plain and simply.

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/700-year-decline-of-interes...

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/policy_and_exchange_rates/ke...

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/INTDSRJPM193N

http://www.nationalbanken.dk/en/marketinfo/official_interest...

https://www.riksbank.se/en-gb/statistics/search-interest--ex...

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#28

Post by chrisseaton »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #9
throwaway_jobs wrote: post #5

I don’t think there is any good way to test UBI at any small scale, I think there needs to be a critical mass of people who can pay their housing and food costs how society and economic activity would be reshaped under such a system.

US centric opinion: Social Security and Medicare are already UBI at large scale, but age tested (62 is the minimum age, 70 the max for social security benefits, age 65 qualified you for Medicare, US universal healthcare for seniors). Caveat: you needed to have worked and earned certain amounts to qualify for Medicare and your benefits level. To test at small scale, you'd need an endowment that would use the investmen…

Seems like nonsense to me to say 'this is universal income just except it's not universal.' If you take away the 'universal' then you're missing the entire point.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#29

Post by MiroF »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #20
ketanmaheshwari wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am really curious to learn more about why UBI will not drive the prices up. Could you indicate any articles that elaborate on this?

Better question: why would it? Economics is complicated. In a free market there's no way to distinguish 'UBI money' from any other kind. Try jacking your price up - somebody else will have a sale and eat your lunch.

But if everyone has more liquidity access, that drives prices up. You don't have to do something like distinguish UBI money for this to be true.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#30

Post by twic »

throwaway_jobs wrote: post #5

I don’t think there is any good way to test UBI at any small scale, I think there needs to be a critical mass of people who can pay their housing and food costs how society and economic activity would be reshaped under such a system.

What if you did it in some moderately isolated place, like Alaska?

Alaska already has almost-universal not-quite-basic income:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund

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