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Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

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Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#211

Post by cm2187 »

legerdemain wrote: post #8

One of the outcomes of the US-Iraq war was Iraq's national heritage of antiquities getting plundered and sold illegally.[1] The burning of the Library of Alexandria is a potent symbol in Western culture, but the world has repeatedly suffered massive losses of cultural and historical artifacts in the last few decades. The public quickly develops historical amnesia for recent events. Compare, for example, the loss of B…

It depends on the definition of lost. I would argue that an artefact is better protected in a museum in Washington DC rather than in a country in a state of civil war.

Then the debate isn't so much about being lost, but whether the artefact should be located in the country where it was originally created, thousands of years ago.

And I think you can see it both ways. I don't understand people who identify themselves to the population that lived on the same territory centuries ago. It is a different people, a different culture, and there might be some trace of that culture left (like there are traces of the roman empire culture left all over europe), there might be some artefacts, some monuments left. But they are really a foreign people to the current inabitants. So should St Mark's Basilica in venice be destroyed to return the looted parts to Turkey? Or should the Lyxor obelisk on the place de la Concorde in Paris be returned to Egypt? I don't think so.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#212

Post by cm2187 »

sonofhans wrote: post #178
khawkins wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the region's susceptibility to Islamic State uprisings, I'm not convinced Iraq and Syria are going to be good stewards of antiquities in the long-run. [1][2] These areas haven't been stable for decades. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_cultural_herita... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Mosul_Museum_ar...

Well, one of these artifacts looks to have been in that region of the world for over 5000 years. That's a pretty good track record. I'm sure the citizens of Philly wouldn't be susceptible to any arguments that Baghdad would be a better place to store the Liberty Bell.

That’s not a very good argument. ISIS has destroyed a lot of artefacts and antique ruins. The track record, even recent, is actually pretty bad.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#213

Post by Torok »

sonofhans wrote: post #178
khawkins wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the region's susceptibility to Islamic State uprisings, I'm not convinced Iraq and Syria are going to be good stewards of antiquities in the long-run. [1][2] These areas haven't been stable for decades. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_cultural_herita... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Mosul_Museum_ar...

Well, one of these artifacts looks to have been in that region of the world for over 5000 years. That's a pretty good track record. I'm sure the citizens of Philly wouldn't be susceptible to any arguments that Baghdad would be a better place to store the Liberty Bell.

Your first point makes sense but your second just isn't comparable in any way at all seeing as Baghdad is literally one of the most inhospitable places to live at the moment

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#214

Post by orf »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #203
luckydata wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ehm, plumbing is a bad example since the Romans did that WAY ahead of the Muslim world. For that AND sidewalks, you're welcome. Thanks for the numbers, that was handy.

>you're welcome I hope that was a joke. It's very sad to see people take credit for achievements of others just on the grounds that they happen to share the same nationality/race/religion/birth place. Sure, someone of your tribe achieved X in the past, very well done, but how did YOU contribute to that? Winning the lottery of birth is not an achievement.

It’s very clearly said as an attempt at humour, rather than them actually taking credit for something they didn’t do.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#215

Post by sydd »

khawkins wrote: post #173
legerdemain wrote: post #8

One of the outcomes of the US-Iraq war was Iraq's national heritage of antiquities getting plundered and sold illegally.[1] The burning of the Library of Alexandria is a potent symbol in Western culture, but the world has repeatedly suffered massive losses of cultural and historical artifacts in the last few decades. The public quickly develops historical amnesia for recent events. Compare, for example, the loss of B…

Given the region's susceptibility to Islamic State uprisings, I'm not convinced Iraq and Syria are going to be good stewards of antiquities in the long-run. [1][2] These areas haven't been stable for decades. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_cultural_herita... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Mosul_Museum_ar...

but its still theirs. USA or any other nation has no right to take it. Its like China would take the declaration of independence for "safekeeping"

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#216

Post by [deleted] »

orf wrote: post #214
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you're welcome I hope that was a joke. It's very sad to see people take credit for achievements of others just on the grounds that they happen to share the same nationality/race/religion/birth place. Sure, someone of your tribe achieved X in the past, very well done, but how did YOU contribute to that? Winning the lottery of birth is not an achievement.

It’s very clearly said as an attempt at humour, rather than them actually taking credit for something they didn’t do.

[deleted]

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#217

Post by jonathanstrange »

orf wrote: post #214
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you're welcome I hope that was a joke. It's very sad to see people take credit for achievements of others just on the grounds that they happen to share the same nationality/race/religion/birth place. Sure, someone of your tribe achieved X in the past, very well done, but how did YOU contribute to that? Winning the lottery of birth is not an achievement.

It’s very clearly said as an attempt at humour, rather than them actually taking credit for something they didn’t do.

He doesn't sound like he's joking to me (see his other reply), at least the "clearly" in your reply was unwarranted.

Edit: Anyway I'm starting to believe that this whole submission/thread should be flagged. It certainly discusses many things besides the theft of the tablet.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#218

Post by billfruit »

Amezarak wrote: post #107
nemo wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>in Egypt, the Great Pyramid was once covered with gleaming white limestone, but this was removed and used to build mosques This is a very misleading distortion of history. The limestone casing on the Great Pyramid was destroyed in an earthquake in 1308 CE. The limestone rubble was pulled from the base of the pyramid and repurposed for building though much of it was also burned in kilns for lime like the marble of ma…

This comes across a little patronizing. The poster is making the point that North Africa had been part of a civilized empire for centuries, and full of wealthy cities, some famous for their learning. Some of history’s greatest minds lived in Roman North Africa. These cities were conquered. Some were sacked and destroyed. There was major loss of life, economic destruction, and loss of property, including written works…

Much of Roman Africa was in a state of deterioration due to Christan invaders like Visigoths(I think) who overrun the Roman African provinces towards the decline of the Western Roman Empire.

At the time of the expansion of Islam, there was no longer even a Western Roman Empire.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#219

Post by jonathanstrange »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #55
enitihas wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Government was stable, until the US of A decided to bless them with freedom and democracy. Your logic is absurd. Should a rich and stable nation steal all things of historical value from a poorer nation, in the name of history preservation? > The Elgin marbles are safe in the British Museum. Would they have been safe, left where they were found, for 100 years? It frankly doesn't matter. It was the right of the na…

Right, that's the PC line. Rational and reasonable. Sadly, likely to result in more lost antiquities. None of that argument actually addresses the safety of the artifacts, which is my single point I'm making here. Argue all we like about what 'should' be. The reality is, they were lost once and could be lost again. All in support of the 'native people', who in these cases would include hungry looters.

You cannot steal someone else's property even if you rightly believe that the owner wouldn't treat it very well. The same holds between civilized countries, of course.

It is obvious that the people who think otherwise employ double moral standards and would never agree to the theft of their country's cultural heritage under similar conditions.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#220

Post by mcv »

brigandish wrote: post #130
nemo wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>in Egypt, the Great Pyramid was once covered with gleaming white limestone, but this was removed and used to build mosques This is a very misleading distortion of history. The limestone casing on the Great Pyramid was destroyed in an earthquake in 1308 CE. The limestone rubble was pulled from the base of the pyramid and repurposed for building though much of it was also burned in kilns for lime like the marble of ma…

If that "Golden Age" includes the destruction of Nalanda[1], then forgive me if I agree with the person you're replying to, it was an incredibly destructive empire that aggressively expanded and destroyed anything that deemed heretic. As such, it's not exceptional in either sense. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda#Decline_and_destructio... Edit - As I can't reply to stuff like this (it deserved to die) but in…

The Arab world, and Arabic history, is not homogenous. Some Muslim nations were very progressive, others were very backwards. Just like non-Muslim nations, really.

There was definitely a period when western Europe was very backwards whereas a lot of meaningful and important progress was made in Muslim countries. There have been Islamic empires that were relatively tolerant about differences, and certainly didn't destroy everything they deemed heretic.

We have a strong tendency to generalise: everything that's a bit distant from us has to be either one thing of the other thing. We're terrible at nuance, yet it's vital in order to understand history.

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