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Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

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Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#51

Post by enitihas »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #39
crazygringo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then it'll probably just disappear again. Sigh. What are you basing that on?

Oh is Iraq's government stable again? Are the people not at risk of hunger? Will the sanctity of museums be observed now and in the future, uninterrupted? The Elgin marbles are safe in the British Museum. Would they have been safe, left where they were found, for 100 years? Being PC about antiquities is intellectually interesting. But practically, it means many antiquities will be broken up, lost or hidden.

The Government was stable, until the US of A decided to bless them with freedom and democracy.

Your logic is absurd. Should a rich and stable nation steal all things of historical value from a poorer nation, in the name of history preservation?

> The Elgin marbles are safe in the British Museum. Would they have been safe, left where they were found, for 100 years?

It frankly doesn't matter. It was the right of the native people to decide what to do with them.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#52

Post by Veen »

deathgrips wrote: post #35
keiferski wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The destruction of Baghdad itself, including the House of Wisdom (large library), by the Mongols in 1258 is probably a more apt comparison. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wisdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)

What a tragedy. Most westerners don't realize that when Europeans were living in mud huts and emptying their chamber pots into the streets, the Muslim world had plumbing, water filtration, surgery, advanced mathematics, and many more amazing scientific advances which quickly spread throughout Muslim countries due to the cultural exchange at Mecca. I wonder what the world could have been like if the Mongols had never…

> amazing scientific advances which quickly spread throughout Muslim countries due to the cultural exchange at Mecca

A more important factor in their quick spread was the violent conquest of a huge swathe of the Middle East, North Africa, and part of Western Europe.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#53

Post by geggam »

renewiltord wrote: post #11

I wonder how many soldier millionaires have been made by the War in Iraq. A small shot at wealth, a low risk of death, maybe going to war there as an individual isn't too bad.

I wonder how many wars we would have if soldiers were allowed to pillage like they did back in the day ?

Civilized war is silly

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#54

Post by aaronbrethorst »

chadlavi wrote: post #45
aaronbrethorst wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that weird. The founder of Hobby Lobby is an evangelical Christian, among other things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Green_(entrepreneur)

tbh that guy's whole deal only makes it weirder

I think that Green's whole deal is really bizarre and disturbing. This tablet sub-plot feels really on brand for him.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#55

Post by JoeAltmaier »

enitihas wrote: post #51
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh is Iraq's government stable again? Are the people not at risk of hunger? Will the sanctity of museums be observed now and in the future, uninterrupted? The Elgin marbles are safe in the British Museum. Would they have been safe, left where they were found, for 100 years? Being PC about antiquities is intellectually interesting. But practically, it means many antiquities will be broken up, lost or hidden.

The Government was stable, until the US of A decided to bless them with freedom and democracy. Your logic is absurd. Should a rich and stable nation steal all things of historical value from a poorer nation, in the name of history preservation? > The Elgin marbles are safe in the British Museum. Would they have been safe, left where they were found, for 100 years? It frankly doesn't matter. It was the right of the na…

Right, that's the PC line. Rational and reasonable. Sadly, likely to result in more lost antiquities.

None of that argument actually addresses the safety of the artifacts, which is my single point I'm making here.

Argue all we like about what 'should' be. The reality is, they were lost once and could be lost again. All in support of the 'native people', who in these cases would include hungry looters.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#56

Post by Amezarak »

deathgrips wrote: post #35
keiferski wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The destruction of Baghdad itself, including the House of Wisdom (large library), by the Mongols in 1258 is probably a more apt comparison. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wisdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)

What a tragedy. Most westerners don't realize that when Europeans were living in mud huts and emptying their chamber pots into the streets, the Muslim world had plumbing, water filtration, surgery, advanced mathematics, and many more amazing scientific advances which quickly spread throughout Muslim countries due to the cultural exchange at Mecca. I wonder what the world could have been like if the Mongols had never…

All those things existed in the Roman Empire, which extended into the Middle East, until the early Muslim conquests destroyed most of the Roman Empire and all of the Persian Empire, sending the Middle East into a minor dark age.

Because the region had been extremely wealthy and advanced for centuries, with plenty of intra-Empire cultural exchange, itdid eventually recover. Most (not all) of the “advances” were translations of and commentaries on Greek/Roman and Persian works, and notably, most of them were from the pre-existing conquered strata population in pre-existing centers of learning. Of course, as time went on, people did build up higher, but the conquests were a major setback.

So let’s not hype it up too much - where would the world be, if, as Gibbon wrote, Mohammed had died in the cradle, and all those people hadn’t been killed, books burned, and cities sacked?

There’s no way to know - it might have been worse off in both cases.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#57

Post by enitihas »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #55
enitihas wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Government was stable, until the US of A decided to bless them with freedom and democracy. Your logic is absurd. Should a rich and stable nation steal all things of historical value from a poorer nation, in the name of history preservation? > The Elgin marbles are safe in the British Museum. Would they have been safe, left where they were found, for 100 years? It frankly doesn't matter. It was the right of the na…

Right, that's the PC line. Rational and reasonable. Sadly, likely to result in more lost antiquities. None of that argument actually addresses the safety of the artifacts, which is my single point I'm making here. Argue all we like about what 'should' be. The reality is, they were lost once and could be lost again. All in support of the 'native people', who in these cases would include hungry looters.

The "hungry" looters getting food by selling them is a much better outcome then the rich "gentleman" taking pleasure by seeing them in a museum. Just because one won the genetic lottery by being born in a richer nation doesn't mean their entertainment has more value than the food of "hungry" looters, who too are human beings.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#58

Post by selimthegrim »

davidw wrote: post #40
selimthegrim wrote: post #34

This sounds like the beginning of a horror movie you'd find on Lifetime or Hallmark, but where the ancient Mesopotamian evil accepts Christ and sits down for tea and cakes with the children like in Narnia.

"Ned Flanders comes into possession of an ancient evil stone tablet and makes Homer do his bidding"

Clearly someone didn't see the episode with the re-neducation camps...

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#59

Post by cambalache »

laingc wrote: post #41
deathgrips wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a tragedy. Most westerners don't realize that when Europeans were living in mud huts and emptying their chamber pots into the streets, the Muslim world had plumbing, water filtration, surgery, advanced mathematics, and many more amazing scientific advances which quickly spread throughout Muslim countries due to the cultural exchange at Mecca. I wonder what the world could have been like if the Mongols had never…

Wait until you read about the Roman Republic thousands of years before this time - you’re gonna love it.

Yeah but besides the sanitation system,the aqueduct, the roads, the irrigation system, medicine,oratory, law, historians, dramatists,Vitruvius..what did those lousy Romans have?

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#60

Post by rayiner »

deathgrips wrote: post #35
keiferski wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The destruction of Baghdad itself, including the House of Wisdom (large library), by the Mongols in 1258 is probably a more apt comparison. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wisdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)

What a tragedy. Most westerners don't realize that when Europeans were living in mud huts and emptying their chamber pots into the streets, the Muslim world had plumbing, water filtration, surgery, advanced mathematics, and many more amazing scientific advances which quickly spread throughout Muslim countries due to the cultural exchange at Mecca. I wonder what the world could have been like if the Mongols had never…

I’m pretty sure I learned all that in high school (in Virginia, 20 years ago when it was still a red state).
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