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Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

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Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#101

Post by redisman »

microtherion wrote: post #38
triceratops wrote: post #7

> Hobby Lobby bought the tablet in a private sale, after a Hobby Lobby representative viewed the tablet in London. The auction house shipped the tablet to its New York office and, from there, hand-carried it to Hobby Lobby's headquarters in Oklahoma City, "so that Hobby Lobby could avoid incurring a New York sales tax," according to prosecutors. Oy vey. I don't know how serious this is but it's not a great look. Is t…

> Is this kind of thing [tax evasion] common in the art world? Oh yes, it seems so common that it's more or less openly advertised: https://www.wealthmanagement.com/art-auctions-antiques-repor... And art collectors are not infrequently involved in shady schemes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Schwarzenbach#VAT_fraud_an...

The super rich play a completely different game than the rest of us.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#102

Post by [deleted] »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #74
testbot123 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So its ok if local thieves and looters take the treasures with no thought of their preservation or provenance? No. But two wrongs don't make a right. > a methodical effort of record-keeping and analysis is wrong, simply because of the thieves nationality? When the thieves illegally steal a nation's artifacts and illegally sell them to a private buyer? Yes. > One is 'better' than the other, only from a comfortable a…

Not fair! I'm not suggesting a course of action, or passing judgement on the right solution; that is squarly with responders here. I simply observe, the 'right' action will likely result in the destruction/loss of more antiquities. Which is amply supportable by history, recent and ancient.

[deleted]

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#103

Post by nemo »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #39
crazygringo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then it'll probably just disappear again. Sigh. What are you basing that on?

Oh is Iraq's government stable again? Are the people not at risk of hunger? Will the sanctity of museums be observed now and in the future, uninterrupted? The Elgin marbles are safe in the British Museum. Would they have been safe, left where they were found, for 100 years? Being PC about antiquities is intellectually interesting. But practically, it means many antiquities will be broken up, lost or hidden.

>The Elgin marbles are safe in the British Museum. Would they have been safe, left where they were found, for 100 years?

There's a safe, climate controlled, stable spot waiting for them in Athens now. They would not be left in the elements to be ruined if Britain were to choose to return them.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#104

Post by officemonkey »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #49
officemonkey wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering they were looted from the Parthenon in Athens, which is still standing, I would say "yes."

Through a world wars I and II, the various rebellions and coups, a civil war? No, very likely someone would have 'harvested' them to sell for food. Come on! The Nazis systematically plundered art treasures across Europe. After the war much of that was lost. There is not really much doubt on this.

Half of the marbles from the Parthenon survive in the Acropolis Museum. In other words, the Greeks know what they're doing. The Elgin Marbles were taken when the country was owned by the Ottoman Empire.

I really wish you would do some research before spouting off with ill-informed opinions. The Nazis and Italians conquered Greece during WW2, they didn't take Acropolis marbles.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#105

Post by officemonkey »

tobylane wrote: post #69
officemonkey wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering they were looted from the Parthenon in Athens, which is still standing, I would say "yes."

Half of the friezes had been destroyed or severely damaged by the time Elgin went there. Some of the remaining pieces have been damaged since he went. The building originally had four walls and a roof.

Yes. And since the Greeks still have many of the acropolis marbles in their museum, it's fatuous to assume that they couldn't protect their own heritage.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#106

Post by deepnotderp »

legerdemain wrote: post #8

One of the outcomes of the US-Iraq war was Iraq's national heritage of antiquities getting plundered and sold illegally.[1] The burning of the Library of Alexandria is a potent symbol in Western culture, but the world has repeatedly suffered massive losses of cultural and historical artifacts in the last few decades. The public quickly develops historical amnesia for recent events. Compare, for example, the loss of B…

The Burning of the Library of Alexandria was neither intentional nor absolute. A better example is the burning of the House of Wisdom by the Ilkhanate Mongols

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#107

Post by Amezarak »

nemo wrote: post #97
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could say the same thing about a lot of conquerors including the Arab armies. For example, when the Arab armies conquered North Africa, it was one of the richest and most developed areas in the Mediterranean. After the Arab conquest, it became a backwater and never achieved the prominence it had before. Also, in Egypt, the Great Pyramid was once covered with gleaming white limestone, but this was removed and used…

>in Egypt, the Great Pyramid was once covered with gleaming white limestone, but this was removed and used to build mosques This is a very misleading distortion of history. The limestone casing on the Great Pyramid was destroyed in an earthquake in 1308 CE. The limestone rubble was pulled from the base of the pyramid and repurposed for building though much of it was also burned in kilns for lime like the marble of ma…

This comes across a little patronizing. The poster is making the point that North Africa had been part of a civilized empire for centuries, and full of wealthy cities, some famous for their learning. Some of history’s greatest minds lived in Roman North Africa.

These cities were conquered. Some were sacked and destroyed. There was major loss of life, economic destruction, and loss of property, including written works. The conquerors, at the time, did not much appreciate the value of what they were destroying.

The fact that the region later somewhat recovered does not take away from the fact that, if we’re talking about setbacks for human progress, the early Muslim conquests were one. Yes, there was a great reawakening where the conquerors began to appreciate the legacy that remained, and began translating and building on the works that escaped their destruction. That doesn’t make the intervening period better. And certainly the poster is correct that cities like Alexandria and Carthage never again achieved their old prominence.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#108

Post by jhbadger »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #42
legerdemain wrote: post #8

One of the outcomes of the US-Iraq war was Iraq's national heritage of antiquities getting plundered and sold illegally.[1] The burning of the Library of Alexandria is a potent symbol in Western culture, but the world has repeatedly suffered massive losses of cultural and historical artifacts in the last few decades. The public quickly develops historical amnesia for recent events. Compare, for example, the loss of B…

Ironically, purely from an amoral preservation point of view, having the antiquities in a museum in the United States or Western Europe has a higher chance of preserving the artifact for future generations.

That's the argument that the British Museum uses to justify its collection (much of which was obtained through colonialism). Many countries (even Western ones like Greece) would like their stuff back.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#109

Post by deepnotderp »

deathgrips wrote: post #35
keiferski wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The destruction of Baghdad itself, including the House of Wisdom (large library), by the Mongols in 1258 is probably a more apt comparison. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wisdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)

What a tragedy. Most westerners don't realize that when Europeans were living in mud huts and emptying their chamber pots into the streets, the Muslim world had plumbing, water filtration, surgery, advanced mathematics, and many more amazing scientific advances which quickly spread throughout Muslim countries due to the cultural exchange at Mecca. I wonder what the world could have been like if the Mongols had never…

Rome had most of that long ago. Some of their field surgery technology in particular was extremely advanced.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#110

Post by adventured »

enitihas wrote: post #51
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh is Iraq's government stable again? Are the people not at risk of hunger? Will the sanctity of museums be observed now and in the future, uninterrupted? The Elgin marbles are safe in the British Museum. Would they have been safe, left where they were found, for 100 years? Being PC about antiquities is intellectually interesting. But practically, it means many antiquities will be broken up, lost or hidden.

The Government was stable, until the US of A decided to bless them with freedom and democracy. Your logic is absurd. Should a rich and stable nation steal all things of historical value from a poorer nation, in the name of history preservation? > The Elgin marbles are safe in the British Museum. Would they have been safe, left where they were found, for 100 years? It frankly doesn't matter. It was the right of the na…

> The Government was stable, until the US of A decided to bless them with freedom and democracy.

The Iraqi dictatorship was not stable at all. There were constant purges, murders, by Saddam Hussein's regime. That occurred the entire time Saddam was in power. Please explain how that's a stable situation.

The fact that Saddam had to constantly murder members of his own government, demonstrates beyond doubt that it was not stable at all. The routine execution of members of the Iraqi Government was required due to the extreme instability that such an oppressive minority dictatorship prompts.

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