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Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

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Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#61

Post by burfog »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #19

Kind of sad all around. The table was essentially rescued from ignominy. But of course it belongs to Iraq. Then it'll probably just disappear again. Sigh.

The government could even want this. For example:

The tablet leaves the country. The government is aware, but pretends otherwise. Money flows into the country to pay for the tablet. The government reports the tablet missing, then gets it back. Repeat, for a nice flow of cash.

Selling the same object multiple times must be profitable.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#62

Post by dagnabbit »

dmurray wrote: post #31
triceratops wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If your New York business sells something to someone in Oklahoma, you don't have to charge NY sales tax Are you sure about that? It seems that at least online businesses don't work that way.[1] 1. https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/self-employment-taxes/s...

I'm not an expert, but that link seems to agree with me (note we are talking about a transaction circa 2014). > If your business has a physical presence, or “nexus”, in a state, you must collect applicable sales taxes from online customers in that state. > If you do not have a physical presence, you generally do not have to collect sales tax for online sales. However, in June of 2018, the U.S. Supreme Court issued a…

The buyer is still responsible for paying a 'use tax' in that case (which is typically identical to the sales tax rate).

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#63

Post by RyJones »

triceratops wrote: post #7

> Hobby Lobby bought the tablet in a private sale, after a Hobby Lobby representative viewed the tablet in London. The auction house shipped the tablet to its New York office and, from there, hand-carried it to Hobby Lobby's headquarters in Oklahoma City, "so that Hobby Lobby could avoid incurring a New York sales tax," according to prosecutors. Oy vey. I don't know how serious this is but it's not a great look. Is t…

Boeing, for years, 'delivered' jets at the Portland, Oregon airport to avoid Washington state sales tax.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#64

Post by JoeAltmaier »

enitihas wrote: post #57
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, that's the PC line. Rational and reasonable. Sadly, likely to result in more lost antiquities. None of that argument actually addresses the safety of the artifacts, which is my single point I'm making here. Argue all we like about what 'should' be. The reality is, they were lost once and could be lost again. All in support of the 'native people', who in these cases would include hungry looters.

The "hungry" looters getting food by selling them is a much better outcome then the rich "gentleman" taking pleasure by seeing them in a museum. Just because one won the genetic lottery by being born in a richer nation doesn't mean their entertainment has more value than the food of "hungry" looters, who too are human beings.

So its ok if local thieves and looters take the treasures with no thought of their preservation or provenance? But a methodical effort of record-keeping and analysis is wrong, simply because of the thieves nationality? That's what I mean by 'PC'. One results in the loss forever of the treasure; the other at least preserves them.

One is 'better' than the other, only from a comfortable armchair far from the turmoil.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#65

Post by tzs »

tedivm wrote: post #29
renewiltord wrote: post #11

I wonder how many soldier millionaires have been made by the War in Iraq. A small shot at wealth, a low risk of death, maybe going to war there as an individual isn't too bad.

According to the most recent study data (2017), an average of 16 veterans commits suicide every day here in the US. Claiming that it "isn't so bad" is remarkably callous.

Perhaps unexpectedly, among veterans who served during the Iraq or Afghanistan wars, those who were deployed have a lower suicide risk than those who were not deployed [1].

Anyone have any explanation for this?

[1] https://www.publichealth.va.gov/epidemiology/studies/suicide...

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#66

Post by JoeAltmaier »

renewiltord wrote: post #11

I wonder how many soldier millionaires have been made by the War in Iraq. A small shot at wealth, a low risk of death, maybe going to war there as an individual isn't too bad.

My son was scarred for life by what he saw, and what he had to do. No, not a walk in the park.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#67

Post by enitihas »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #64
enitihas wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "hungry" looters getting food by selling them is a much better outcome then the rich "gentleman" taking pleasure by seeing them in a museum. Just because one won the genetic lottery by being born in a richer nation doesn't mean their entertainment has more value than the food of "hungry" looters, who too are human beings.

So its ok if local thieves and looters take the treasures with no thought of their preservation or provenance? But a methodical effort of record-keeping and analysis is wrong, simply because of the thieves nationality? That's what I mean by 'PC'. One results in the loss forever of the treasure; the other at least preserves them. One is 'better' than the other, only from a comfortable armchair far from the turmoil.

Sure, if a national treasure is found below your home, you think it's okay to kick you out without any compensation, because history >> individuals?

Do you want to share the natural resources of your own nation with others for free? If not, how on earth is it OK to snatch that of others from them, just because they fit your historical curiosity? This is basically saying we are superior people, and we need to keep things away from the hand of barbarians.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#68

Post by IkmoIkmo »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #50
deathgrips wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a tragedy. Most westerners don't realize that when Europeans were living in mud huts and emptying their chamber pots into the streets, the Muslim world had plumbing, water filtration, surgery, advanced mathematics, and many more amazing scientific advances which quickly spread throughout Muslim countries due to the cultural exchange at Mecca. I wonder what the world could have been like if the Mongols had never…

One could say the same thing about a lot of conquerors including the Arab armies. For example, when the Arab armies conquered North Africa, it was one of the richest and most developed areas in the Mediterranean. After the Arab conquest, it became a backwater and never achieved the prominence it had before. Also, in Egypt, the Great Pyramid was once covered with gleaming white limestone, but this was removed and used…

My understanding is quite different... north africa flourished for hundreds of years after the Arab conquest, particularly during the time of Andalusia which lasted almost 700 years. Even after, North Africa held quite some power from its pirating entities. It was very much a hub, controlling important sea routes. It wasn't until European colonialism that it really turned into a backwater and lost all prominence. At least that's my understanding from my historic readings.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#69

Post by tobylane »

officemonkey wrote: post #43
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh is Iraq's government stable again? Are the people not at risk of hunger? Will the sanctity of museums be observed now and in the future, uninterrupted? The Elgin marbles are safe in the British Museum. Would they have been safe, left where they were found, for 100 years? Being PC about antiquities is intellectually interesting. But practically, it means many antiquities will be broken up, lost or hidden.

Considering they were looted from the Parthenon in Athens, which is still standing, I would say "yes."

Half of the friezes had been destroyed or severely damaged by the time Elgin went there. Some of the remaining pieces have been damaged since he went. The building originally had four walls and a roof.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#70

Post by _bxg1 »

imglorp wrote: post #6
vorpalhex wrote: post #2

Auction houses have some very shady practices sometimes, and I imagine it's very difficult for buyers to navigate what is legal and what's not - but also in this case, it kind of seems like maybe they should have known.

They knew. Their own expert lawyer warned them in 2010. It's also their MO apparently. A second case involves Egyptian papyri. They also mis-declare things to get them into the country (ie calling them "tiles" in customs declarations). So, lying and stealing. 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/05/nyregion/hobby-lobby-arti... 2. https://www.thedailybeast.com/hobby-lobby-scandal-widens-as-... 3. https://www.theguardian…

The comical part is that their very interest in the items is based in a religion that's nominally very opposed to lying and stealing. Fetishizing artifacts is apparently more important to their faith than doing what's right.
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