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Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

demoshelsinki.fi

91–100 of 182 posts

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#91

Meta: countless fiscal policy changes are made in weeks. But for UBI, decades of experiments and data-driven validation seem to be required. Why is it acceptable that UBI requires such huge burden of proof? Don't tell me that it's more radical than other reforms: when used as a replacement for welfare and other subsidies at comparable cost, it is pretty mild.

Because it would be bigger than any other program and likely bigger than every other program combined and like every other program will be impossible to remove once it is in place. This is Russian Roulette with a 64-chamber revolver with only one round removed.

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1) less economic troubles and financial stress; 2) Higher confidence in future possibilities; 3) More self-determination and autonomy. Do we really need to test that though? It seems obvious that giving someone money without affecting their taxes, the price of goods etc would do this. The issue is that once you roll it out on the society level, it's not the same any more. It will affect their taxes and inflation. W…

Why do you say it seems obvious? The most persistent objections to UBI (or welfare or unemployment for that matter) is that they cause dependency and lazyiness; that they destroy the self-confidence and ambition of the receivers. Many still claim that it will make them financially worse off. Checkout the auto complete in DDG or Google for "welfare causes ...". Look at the arguments in the results. We can't even have…

UBI is not welfare. Welfare is supposed to be designed as a safety net to help people get off of welfare and help pay for the people who need it.

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#94
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problems with such UBI experiments is the limited time of the experiment. If I had a shitty, dead-end job, and someone offered me (eg.) 80% of an average paycheck in my country, FOR 2 YEARS, i'd be happier than before, and use that money to pay off loans, buy a new car, go for a vacation, etc., and keep my curent job. If I had a shitty, dead-end job, and someone offered me (eg.) 80% of an average paycheck…

> If I had a shitty, dead-end job, and someone offered me (eg.) 80% of an average paycheck in my country, FOREVER(!), i'd probably quit, and live off UBI, and do other stuff (fun for me, but litle of value to to wider society, and with probably zero tax money to feed the UBI system). ...or, probably move somewhere, where I can get more for that amount of money. While I do think this might be what some people will do,…

Fair enough, but I’m more concerned if UBI turned out to be a bad policy, would it be repealed? Practically speaking, the government has a poor track record of back pedaling on bad policies once they are in place.

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Administering the welfare system costs orders of magnitude less than paying unconditional living wage to the UK's 8 million economically inactive working age people.

unconditional living wage Living wage is shifting the goalposts, anyway it’s a simple calculation, total welfare budget including benefits of all kinds divided by number of adult citizens.

Whilst there might be disagreements over the actual calculation, both the idea of a living wage and a UBI revolve around the idea of providing an adequate subsistence income for an adult.

But if we're determining welfare budget by dividing non-pension benefit spend by number of working age adults, the problem becomes that you're dividing around 130 billion by ~36 million, and whilst that's a welcome top up for some people, there are a lot of people who have just lost their housing benefit and disability benefit that won't be able to live on £4k a year...

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#96
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problems with such UBI experiments is the limited time of the experiment. If I had a shitty, dead-end job, and someone offered me (eg.) 80% of an average paycheck in my country, FOR 2 YEARS, i'd be happier than before, and use that money to pay off loans, buy a new car, go for a vacation, etc., and keep my curent job. If I had a shitty, dead-end job, and someone offered me (eg.) 80% of an average paycheck…

> If I had a shitty, dead-end job, and someone offered me (eg.) 80% of an average paycheck in my country, FOREVER(!), i'd probably quit, and live off UBI, and do other stuff (fun for me, but litle of value to to wider society, and with probably zero tax money to feed the UBI system). ...or, probably move somewhere, where I can get more for that amount of money. While I do think this might be what some people will do,…

> I've had periods of years in my life where I didn't have to think about money. After a short period of faffing off, I started doing all sorts of stuff. Some of it of direct value to society (volunteering) and some of it perhaps indirectly so (teaching myself new skills, working on 'products' that could be useful). I mean, even just spending time with others who themselves had it in short supply and valued my company could be considered 'useful to society'.

Do those activities generate enough money, so that government collects enough taxes from you, to cover your UBI + all the other costs (roads, schools,...)? If not, you're still a net burden on society.

> People want to be useful. People want to be valued and needed. People want to be creative.

Of course people want to be useful and creative. But peoples usefullness and creativeness has to create atlest 2xUBI of taxes (one that goes back to the worker and one that goes to someone who get UBI but doesnt work) + all the other costs.

If you're capable of doing stuff you like, being creative, liking that work, and creating that much income, why are you not doing it now?

> I consider it quite possible, or at least worth properly exploring, a society that provides in the basic needs regardless of whether you do pointless work for pointless company to allow you to spend your downtime on pointless consumption and entertainment (because no energy for anything else).

Problem with this society is, that it also requires people who are working, to cover the cost of the poeple who are not working. Curretnly most countries do that for a very small percentage of unemployed (welfare), and most people in those countries are already complaining about the high taxes. If you raise the taxes on the people left working, and let others live relatively normal lives without working, you'll get less and less of the former and more of the later. Yes, non-workers will create music, art, will travel, write blogs, etc., but none of that generates enough income to cover even their own cost.

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#97
post #94
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I had a shitty, dead-end job, and someone offered me (eg.) 80% of an average paycheck in my country, FOREVER(!), i'd probably quit, and live off UBI, and do other stuff (fun for me, but litle of value to to wider society, and with probably zero tax money to feed the UBI system). ...or, probably move somewhere, where I can get more for that amount of money. While I do think this might be what some people will do,…

Fair enough, but I’m more concerned if UBI turned out to be a bad policy, would it be repealed? Practically speaking, the government has a poor track record of back pedaling on bad policies once they are in place.

I'm skeptical about this too.... especialy if the UBI was the 'thing' that got them elected in the first place. And people would be protesting because they'd be losing 'free money'.

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#98
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think science is free from those flaws either. Science advances one death at a time.

There are certainly plenty of fields that have a these problems and are vulnerable to be politically driven. I'd say the further toward the "soft" sciences you go, the more you're able to manipulate results to fit certain viewpoints. 538 has a nice little demo showing off the problem. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/p-hacking/

Awesome site! Sadly p hacking is also a problem in many fields not just the soft sciences. It’s a bit of a dig at science but is it a fundamental flaw of the scientific method?

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#99
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I had a shitty, dead-end job, and someone offered me (eg.) 80% of an average paycheck in my country, FOREVER(!), i'd probably quit, and live off UBI, and do other stuff (fun for me, but litle of value to to wider society, and with probably zero tax money to feed the UBI system). ...or, probably move somewhere, where I can get more for that amount of money. While I do think this might be what some people will do,…

> I've had periods of years in my life where I didn't have to think about money. After a short period of faffing off, I started doing all sorts of stuff. Some of it of direct value to society (volunteering) and some of it perhaps indirectly so (teaching myself new skills, working on 'products' that could be useful). I mean, even just spending time with others who themselves had it in short supply and valued my compan…

>Do those activities generate enough money, so that government collects enough taxes from you, to cover your UBI + all the other costs (roads, schools,...)? If not, you're still a net burden on society.

I challenge your assumption that someone's worth to society can be accounted for by tax revenue.

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#100
post #89
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can’t we ever design one such experiment right? It’s as if we were giving ammunition to those opposed to it by conducting trials that have flaws! Would it really be so hard to run a proper test that follows all the best practices and isn’t biased/flawed so that we could once and for all point at it and say “we can conclusively say UBI is/isn’t viable based on this experiment”? I mean if a country goes all the way…

A real test would have to - pick participants at random (regardless of employment status) - give money to all the participants - make all participants pay higher taxes to finance For this to be realistic, the participants would not have a choice whether or not to participate. So yeah, I can't for the life of me think why we "can't ever design such experiment right".

> So yeah, I can't for the life of me think why we "can't ever design such experiment right".

Your sarcasm undermines your point.

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