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Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

demoshelsinki.fi

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Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#31

Post by misja111 »

nabla9 wrote: post #15
shse wrote: post #3

It only works for a relatively small group of people. Scaling it up to 100% of the population would result in inflation.

UBI is just redistribution scheme. There is no increase of price level because aggregate income stays the same.

If UBI is just a redistribution scheme and aggregate income stays the same, how is UBI than different from the various 'social' countries in Europe such as e.g. Sweden and Finland?

Those countries have progressive income taxes and social benefits for those without work. Isn't this the same as what UBI would look like if aggregate income would stay the same?

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#32

Post by nabla9 »

misja111 wrote: post #31
nabla9 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI is just redistribution scheme. There is no increase of price level because aggregate income stays the same.

If UBI is just a redistribution scheme and aggregate income stays the same, how is UBI than different from the various 'social' countries in Europe such as e.g. Sweden and Finland? Those countries have progressive income taxes and social benefits for those without work. Isn't this the same as what UBI would look like if aggregate income would stay the same?

UBI removes high marginal tax rate from poor households.

See my other comment https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=23140692

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#33

Post by Ensorceled »

luckylion wrote: post #23
rikumattila wrote: post #8

true it was not a test of "universal basic income" as such as it targeted only part of the population. Some results are, however, relevant when assessing them from the world of (post-pandemic) 2020: the participants of the experiment reported 1) less economic troubles and financial stress; 2) Higher confidence in future possibilities; 3) More self-determination and autonomy.

> 1) less economic troubles and financial stress; 2) Higher confidence in future possibilities; 3) More self-determination and autonomy. Do we really need to test that though? It seems obvious that giving someone money without affecting their taxes, the price of goods etc would do this. The issue is that once you roll it out on the society level, it's not the same any more. It will affect their taxes and inflation. W…

Why do you say it seems obvious? The most persistent objections to UBI (or welfare or unemployment for that matter) is that they cause dependency and lazyiness; that they destroy the self-confidence and ambition of the receivers. Many still claim that it will make them financially worse off.

Checkout the auto complete in DDG or Google for "welfare causes ...". Look at the arguments in the results.

We can't even have the discussion that you say is "the issue" because society is still stuck at the part you claim is obvious.

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#35

Post by plutonorm »

swebs wrote: post #28
ornornor wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can’t we ever design one such experiment right? It’s as if we were giving ammunition to those opposed to it by conducting trials that have flaws! Would it really be so hard to run a proper test that follows all the best practices and isn’t biased/flawed so that we could once and for all point at it and say “we can conclusively say UBI is/isn’t viable based on this experiment”? I mean if a country goes all the way…

In science, evidence determines your viewpoints. In politics, its the other way around. If the results of an experiment support your views, then it was a great experiment and proof that you were right all along. If the results of an experiment contradict your views, then you can fully scrutinize every aspect of the test to come up with reasons why it got such a wrong result.

I don't think science is free from those flaws either. Science advances one death at a time.

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#36

Post by goatinaboat »

akvadrako wrote: post #27
swebs wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and make sure not to find work That's just welfare, not UBI. The U stands for Universal, which means it goes to everyone. Not just the poor or unemployed.

> The U stands for Universal The U is better understood as Unconditional. It doesn't go to everybody or everything, but it doesn't get taken away if you stop working. These were used pretty much equally until about 2011, when the less accurate one started taking hold: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=2004-04-11%202...

It doesn't go to everybody

It has to, because one of the selling point of it is the minimal administrative overhead. In the U.K. we have armies of civil servants to administer our hideously complex welfare system. All of them and the costs of employing them have to go to make it affordable. The good news is that they too will get UBI...

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#37

Post by Farrenor »

diekdnk wrote: post #7
squnch wrote: post #5

Nothing in Scandinavia or Japan is a viable concept for elsewhere unless explicitly tested elsewhere.

No country's alike, and no system can be copied naively. (also Finland isn't part of Scandinavia)

> (also Finland isn't part of Scandinavia)

The Scandinavian countries are easy to recognize based on their flags, as we all share the same pattern on our flags, a cross with the center slightly to the left. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#38

Post by HPsquared »

nabla9 wrote: post #15
shse wrote: post #3

It only works for a relatively small group of people. Scaling it up to 100% of the population would result in inflation.

UBI is just redistribution scheme. There is no increase of price level because aggregate income stays the same.

What happens to production?

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#39

Post by jfindley »

TotempaaltJ wrote: post #26
luckylion wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "real" test would be much harder, and to be actually useful, it would also have to contain a way to finance itself, i.e. by testing it not on a selected group of people, but on a region and adding additional taxes for everyone in the region large enough to offset the payments. If you're only testing the outcome, but not the income, you're essentially allowing "free energy" people to plug their magic machines into a…

AFAIK one component of UBI is that you throw out (most of?) the other welfare benefits you might get. By saving money on that, you could potentially offset or even compensate for the required added income tax.

This sort of thing gets mentioned a lot, but in practice doesn't work. The amount of money spent on welfare benefits[0], plus the cost of the administration, ends up several orders of magnitude less money than UBI wage x Population size. This is the key problem with UBI: making it actually universal costs an unsustainably huge sum of money, and making it not universal just means you've re-invented welfare benefits, but worse.

0: Doesn't really matter which country you choose the results will be the same

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