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Getting Back to Work

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Re: Getting Back to Work

#241

Post by litmus »

firasd wrote: post #17

I’d like to know what Tesla factory workers think. It’s seeming clear to me from various polls that at most 20% of Americans think ‘oh everything is fine let’s go back to work and school tomorrow.’ So opinions on social distancing are not as polarized as you would think from the media.

Yes, I’m curious about this as well even though its an imperfect world where there probably isn’t an ideal, free environment for expressing their opinions. But if the alternative is staying furloughed then their opinions are of interest regardless. After all, they’re witnesses to how the place operates.

What Elon is pushing for seems...no different than what Germany has been doing for at least two weeks? If I’m to understand, people are saying they’re gonna cancel their orders because the company is arguing for a response that is in line with a country (even praised by the American media[0]) that has done a decent job with its pandemic response? This doesn’t seem to be the hill to die on just yet.

Reminds me—not being from there—I’m always amazed how warm southern California is in the winter compared to say, many parts of the mediterranean. I mean Los Angeles in January is warmer than Tehran. Too bad the factory isn’t down there.

The play should be to avoid a shutdown when the second wave hits, no? You look at the warm far eastern asian countries: Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia. They have a combined population of 580 million with less than 2000 combined deaths. 7 times the population of Germany with a fourth of the deaths of Germany. If they had four times the deaths it would still be impressive, considering they’re mostly dealing with it with less healthcare infrastructure.

I do think warmer places would fair better when the second wave hits in the fall. Southern California would be better for a factory. But Texas in that regard would work as well.

[0] https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/04/an...

Re: Getting Back to Work

#242

Post by babesh »

zzleeper wrote: post #221
babesh wrote: post #218

This is the very best article I have read on the lockdown: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/05/04/seattles-leade... The positive is that Washington state acted early and the Bay Area followed quickly which resulted in lower hospitalization and deaths. Tech’s quick move to WFH probably helped slow the spread. This was driven by the Washington state health officials who worked with Microsoft. Bay Area tech compa…

Had the US (at all govt levels) actually treated this seriously, as a health problem and not economic/political problem, we could be in a situation like Taiwan/NZ. The US is large, but mostly insulated, so this was feasible. But it would have required EVERYONE wearing masks, and no delays in locking things down (one day of delay in an exponential situation is like 4 more days of lockdown at the other end)

Manipulation whether in good or bad faith is one is the biggest problems in the US. It’s is coming from both sides. Don’t vote for those who will manipulate you.

Re: Getting Back to Work

#243

Post by billjings »

babesh wrote: post #218

This is the very best article I have read on the lockdown: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/05/04/seattles-leade... The positive is that Washington state acted early and the Bay Area followed quickly which resulted in lower hospitalization and deaths. Tech’s quick move to WFH probably helped slow the spread. This was driven by the Washington state health officials who worked with Microsoft. Bay Area tech compa…

I think the point "Health care officials and government don't respect the public" is worth some deeper consideration.

As a thought exercise, I'd like to put myself in the shoes of that public health official and see what my responsibilities are. I'd know for a fact that, without extreme measures, there will be a huge death toll. And I'd have working experience to know for a fact that, if I come right out and advocate directly for those extreme measures, the public will revolt against them.

So here's the question to answer under this thought exercise: how do I respect the public? It is my role to mitigate this public health disaster. How do I do it?

There's a libertarian or anarchistic streak in US society that views anyone exercising the kinds of roles considered in that thought exercise as an illegitimate use of power over the individual. I have a hard time with that, because it seems to me like it precludes all the tools we use to answer crises like COVID, all of which require people to play those kinds of roles.

Re: Getting Back to Work

#244

Post by rohanshah »

cheez wrote: post #154
Taniwha wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem of course is that Tesla is ardently anti-union - the workers have no one to speak on their behalf

unions helped kill the car companies

this is at best an incomplete assessment and at worst ahistorical

others [1] would argue that it was american auto manufacturers' anti-union zealotry (and the decisions they made in the production process to combat the unions) that lead them to shoot themselves in their own foot.

[1] Schwartz, Michael, and Joshua Murray. Wrecked: How the American Automobile Industry Destroyed Its Capacity to Compete. Russell Sage Foundation, 2019.

Re: Getting Back to Work

#245

Post by cheez »

smolder wrote: post #162
cheez wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unions helped kill the car companies

So did the leadership, and every other circumstance that makes the US an expensive place to live and work compared to budding economies.

And this even though we've outsourced inflation.

Re: Getting Back to Work

#246

Post by exolymph »

mchusma wrote: post #225

One important point in this discussion is that workers only have to return at their own discretion. Since no worker is being forced to work, the argument is best thought of as whether or not workers who chooses to work should be allowed to do so given Tesla's plan. They can also stay at home if they prefer, or seek other employment if they want to work but find Tesla's safety plan unconvincing.

This is true but only in the narrowest possible sense, and one wonders why you felt it was worth noting.

Re: Getting Back to Work

#247

Post by nbardy »

propter_hoc wrote: post #16

Suing the county, really? There's hundreds of thousands, probably millions of businesses that have been shuttered by COVID-19, and yet, of course, who should it be but the constant media circus that is Tesla--whose hit is miniscule compared to the restaurants, hotels and other businesses that actually can't earn revenue--that decides to publicly take it to the courts. I truly hate to say this, but it really smacks of…

Elon has already made it cleared he wants all businesses open. If he could make that happen he would. But there is one place he can affect and that's his own.

Re: Getting Back to Work

#248

Post by cozzyd »

mdorazio wrote: post #209
marcinzm wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but I do know that continuing to pursue current policies until some indefinite point in the future is untenable. Go strawman, go! California and NY both have plans for slowly reopening in the comings weeks or months with various metrics guiding the timelines.

Serious question: can you show me the metrics for california with concrete targets that will trigger reopening? The last plan I saw wasn't a plan at all, it was just guidelines.

At least in Illinois, opening targets are based on agent-based simulations of disease spread. Specifically, the simulations predicted that if Illinois had reopened on May 1, we would have seen a larger peak than the initial one in June. You can read about it here: https://www.chicagobusiness.com/greg-hinz-politics/look-insi...

Re: Getting Back to Work

#249

Post by rad_gruchalski »

lenkite wrote: post #205
frereubu wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does not necessarily follow. Car companies in Germany are heavily unionised and they’re not exactly struggling (at least no more than the entire industry).

A car or any other motor vehicle imported to Germany from outside the EU is normally subject to a 10% import duty and a 19% import value added tax.

Worth noting regarding VAT: if one has a VAT number, it is not a cost. It simply gets passed on and the business claims it back. Different story for an end consumer.

Re: Getting Back to Work

#250

Post by tiny_epoch »

babesh wrote: post #242
zzleeper wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had the US (at all govt levels) actually treated this seriously, as a health problem and not economic/political problem, we could be in a situation like Taiwan/NZ. The US is large, but mostly insulated, so this was feasible. But it would have required EVERYONE wearing masks, and no delays in locking things down (one day of delay in an exponential situation is like 4 more days of lockdown at the other end)

Manipulation whether in good or bad faith is one is the biggest problems in the US. It’s is coming from both sides. Don’t vote for those who will manipulate you.

Unfortunately this means "not voting at all".
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