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Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

theguardian.com

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Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#101

Post by nicbou »

zpeti wrote: post #81
nicbou wrote: post #51

Last year, I had something that was very close to basic income (income-generating website that doesn't require active babysitting). I knew a life without work would be amazing, but I never expected it to be this great. I had much more time and energy to enjoy life. There was never a rush to do anything. I woke up when I wasn't tired. I could read in bed for an hour if it felt right. Sometimes I'd just walk 3-5 kilome…

You built a passive income business. You were living off your own entrepreneurship. You chose to live off your previous work, and not work as much. It was your achievement and you should be proud that you achieved it. In the back of your mind you also knew that you’re the one who did it and you could possibly do it again. This is not UBI and it’s certainly not the long term mental state of someone on UBI.

I got massively lucky. It's a personal project that grew bigger. If I could do it again, I'd already have another website up and running. I've been thinking about it, but I'm coming to terms with being a one-hit wonder.

I get paid a living wage for very little work. The reasons are irrelevant. The most important aspect here is the outcome, which was quite similar to UBI.

Give anyone the humble monthly income I'm given, and they'll find a way to have fun. I just wanted to confirm that it's indeed quite nice.

One thing I didn't mention is that my revenue could plunge at any moment. It did because of COVID-19, for example. This is not the case with UBI.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#102

Post by nicbou »

SilasX wrote: post #84
nicbou wrote: post #51

Last year, I had something that was very close to basic income (income-generating website that doesn't require active babysitting). I knew a life without work would be amazing, but I never expected it to be this great. I had much more time and energy to enjoy life. There was never a rush to do anything. I woke up when I wasn't tired. I could read in bed for an hour if it felt right. Sometimes I'd just walk 3-5 kilome…

You have to be really careful about generalizing from "personally getting regular free money" to everyone getting it. Under a UBI, everyone , unconditionally[1], gets the free money. That has significantly different dynamics than you alone getting it. What happens to rents, for example? If everyone's income goes up, so does the rent. If everyone wanted to live in the same places, for the same reasons, and suddenly ha…

Yes, this is the gap between "I wish everyone had this", and "UBI is a great idea". I don't know if the economics can scale to an entire population, but I really wish it did.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#103

Post by chillacy »

lcall wrote: post #74

I tried to explain in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23033922 ...why a UBI at the US federal level takes away freedom to try better ideas to do good at other levels, is morally wrong, is harmful, and that we can do much more good with persuasion, fundraising, letting states handle it (or smaller scopes), etc etc. (With down-votes, a thoughtful comment is appreciated; thanks.)

Hmm at a glance your comment seems to have a lot of normative assumptions baked in so it's hard to argue with anyone who doesn't share your beliefs. The comment seems to boil down to:

1. These list of behaviors are good

2. This thing (UBI) does not serve those behaviors

3. Therefore UBI is not good

---

First of all anyone who disagrees with one or more of the list of behaviors will probably not be convinced by the remainder of the argument. Those are normative beliefs, anyone from another culture or background/faith won't share all of them with you.

But assuming we accept all of #1, I do not see enough evidence for point #2, why does UBI violate the norms? After all plenty of Christians have been in support of UBI, like MLK and the Pope. I saw the phrase "charity by force" several times but no clear definition of what that is or isn't, for instance the "Basic incentive of working" seems sort of like forceful coercion at some level: you either work or you starve and die. What exactly do these terms mean?

With all that, I'm not convinced that point 3 is supported by what I read.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#104

Post by mikorym »

Has the economics behind a universal basic income been (attempted to be) modelled?

I don't expect a perfectly representative model, but I think a lot along the lines of what made Warren Buffet famous: What is the worth of something vs. the price of that thing? And how does one bring labour into the equation?

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#105

Post by nicbou »

grecy wrote: post #82
nicbou wrote: post #51

Last year, I had something that was very close to basic income (income-generating website that doesn't require active babysitting). I knew a life without work would be amazing, but I never expected it to be this great. I had much more time and energy to enjoy life. There was never a rush to do anything. I woke up when I wasn't tired. I could read in bed for an hour if it felt right. Sometimes I'd just walk 3-5 kilome…

I've chosen to do this twice now, and echo your sentiments After saving for 2 years I quit my software job and spent two years driving from Alaksa to Argentina. I went on multi-day hiking trips, I poked lava with a stick, I paddled with icebergs, went scuba diving and camped in the mountains of Alaska and Patagonia. I got up when I pleased, I cooked my own food (except when street food was stupid-cheap) and I worked…

I rode a motorcycle from Germany to Kazakhstan. That's the project that got me going, and the website picked up along the way. I didn't bring it up because that was paid for by my savings.

I enjoyed this trip so much that I wanted to repeat it elsewhere, but the cost of living is higher in the places I want to see. Then COVID-19 happened and it delayed my trip. I got a short work contract to save up for it, and it means I get to save for a bit longer.

I find it cool that I get to choose how much of my life I want to exchange for money. It's a massive privilege to be in this position.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#106

Post by radu_floricica »

marcosdumay wrote: post #91
radu_floricica wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, this study was very useful, no matter how the guardian is trying to frame it. There was no clear indication that basic income encourages people to find jobs. You can scratch that one off the list. Other than that, there's absolutely nothing surprising. You give people a money and they feel better. That's like... not exactly new information. And yeah, it will change their choices somewhat, which again is no big fi…

It's hard to get any conclusion from this article. There is this: > The researchers also noted a mild positive effect on employment > Freelancers and artists and entrepreneurs had more positive views on the effects of the basic income, which some felt had created opportunities for them to start businesses. And, of course, the often neglected (and that appears as a negative on the numbers): > Some found the guaranteed…

It's a negative result. What isn't there matters - in particular, no info on there being some form of monetary ROI.

I don't have other sources at hand - just memories from when the study was published and there was quite a lot of discussion.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#107

Post by nicbou »

gustavo-fring wrote: post #77
logjammin wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make good points, but you may be missing why OP's comment is getting the upvotes it's getting, or at least why I'd wager it is: he describes the kind of contentment that most of us can't even imagine possessing without winning the lottery, and he described having that contentment with surprisingly (to him/her) modest means. I can't speak for anyone else, but this is why I upvoted it. Hell, I can think of at least…

He's not giving us the full story. Did he have health insurance (seems like he's in Germany, so yeah)? I made under $30k this past year and did not have health insurance. I promise you that I'd rather have that than try to live off $1k a month. If it sounds so great to you, I challenge you to live off that amount and see if it is as grand as he describes. I'm guessing he's making more than $1k. There are a lot of men…

I can gladly talk about financials.

- I have health insurance. It's pretty far from free, and it's mandatory. I wrote a very detailed guide about how German health insurance works [1]. It's not comparable to the US system, and I want to write a separate guide to explain this more accurately.

- My take-home is slightly above what a full time minimum wage worker would make. My expenses are around 1400€ a month. It could be brought down to 1000€, but I insist on certain luxuries and planned my exit accordingly.

1. https://allaboutberlin.com/guides/german-health-insurance I'm happy to answer more questions.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#108

Post by [deleted] »

radu_floricica wrote: post #106
marcosdumay wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to get any conclusion from this article. There is this: > The researchers also noted a mild positive effect on employment > Freelancers and artists and entrepreneurs had more positive views on the effects of the basic income, which some felt had created opportunities for them to start businesses. And, of course, the often neglected (and that appears as a negative on the numbers): > Some found the guaranteed…

It's a negative result. What isn't there matters - in particular, no info on there being some form of monetary ROI. I don't have other sources at hand - just memories from when the study was published and there was quite a lot of discussion.

[deleted]

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#109

Post by moduspol »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #5
BitwiseFool wrote: post #4

The problem I have with studies like this one is that they only measure the effects of getting a stipend during a limited amount of time with a limited amount of people. It's not universal and it's not basic. From a non-scientific view point, of course giving people free money makes them feel better. But from an experimental perspective, they aren't getting the 'full package' of UBI. The participants aren't seeing in…

Don't we already know how that works? Folks on a pension; folks in a state that provides stipends (e.g. Alaska); folks who are independently wealthy. Their behavior has been studied repeatedly, I imagine. In fact I'm confused why this keeps being 'tried' like its some new idea.

Also housewives, disability recipients, unemployed young adults still living at home, retirees.

We've got several demographics that have their basic needs covered without working. Not all are directly comparable with working peers, but surely some likely outcomes could be predicted.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#110

Post by chillacy »

nocitrek wrote: post #2

Important thing to keep in mind regarding UBI is that goverment does not generate any money. In order for goverment to give money, it needs to take it from someone. So UBI is just proxy for wealth redistribution. Sure, wellbeing has improved for small group of people, but the question is how scalable UBI is? Remember, road to hell is paved with good intentions.

> road to hell is paved with good intentions

Unrelated but I really dislike this phrase because it tells us nothing, it's not actionable, nor is it accurate. The road to heaven is paved with good intentions too. There are other roads to hell paved with bad intentions, and probably a few to heaven with bad intentions as well.

A more accurate saying would be "be careful of unintended bad side effects". That's something useful you could say in the workplace in response to a proposal.

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