Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds • Hacker News Board

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#91

Post by marcosdumay » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:47 PM UTC

radu_floricica wrote: post #49

BitwiseFool wrote: post #4

The problem I have with studies like this one is that they only measure the effects of getting a stipend during a limited amount of time with a limited amount of people. It's not universal and it's not basic. From a non-scientific view point, of course giving people free money makes them feel better. But from an experimental perspective, they aren't getting the 'full package' of UBI. The participants aren't seeing in…

Oh, this study was very useful, no matter how the guardian is trying to frame it. There was no clear indication that basic income encourages people to find jobs. You can scratch that one off the list. Other than that, there's absolutely nothing surprising. You give people a money and they feel better. That's like... not exactly new information. And yeah, it will change their choices somewhat, which again is no big fi…

It's hard to get any conclusion from this article. There is this:

> The researchers also noted a mild positive effect on employment

> Freelancers and artists and entrepreneurs had more positive views on the effects of the basic income, which some felt had created opportunities for them to start businesses.

And, of course, the often neglected (and that appears as a negative on the numbers):

> Some found the guaranteed income increased the possibility for them to do things like providing informal care for their family or their neighbours

But actually nothing of substance on either direction.

Do you have a better article?

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#92

Post by JoeAltmaier » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:48 PM UTC

gustavo-fring wrote: post #76

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Used to be higher. Lots of historical data.

No, it didn't. It peaked at $1900 for 2000, which if we take into account inflation is about $3000, which is still a 1/4th of the $12000 most proposals put forward. There'sno point in exaggerating these things, is tehre? 1982 $1,000.00 1983 $386.15 1984 $331.29 1985 $404.00 1986 $556.26 1987 $708.19 1988 $826.93 1989 $873.16 1990 $952.63 1991 $931.34 1992 $915.84 1993 $949.46 1994 $983.90 1995 $990.30 1996 $1,130.68…

Huh. I thought it was 10K at some time. Foo.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#93

Post by epicureanideal » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:48 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #60

grimjack00 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's only 13M factory workers left in America vs 20M+ in the 70's, How much of that is due to automation vs. factory jobs being done outside the US?

No idea. But the trend (avalanche) is to bring them back and automate. That's what we prepare for.

I'm interested to learn more about this trend. I imagine it would accelerate in the current situation. Are there any data sources about this?

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#94

Post by epicureanideal » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:49 PM UTC

rgblambda wrote: post #79

known wrote: post #14

UBI should be coupled with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-actualization

Not wanting to be pedantic, but isn't Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs now considered to be quack science?

I'd love to read about this. Anyone have a link?

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#95

Post by falcolas » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:50 PM UTC

Mirioron wrote: post #33

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, 1950's thinking. Most things are automated now. There's only 13M factory workers left in America vs 20M+ in the 70's, and population has doubled since then. So maybe 20% what there used to be. All that due to automation. And what's left is being automated as fast as humanly possible. After that, we're gonna have a big slug of people out of work, lots of relatively cheap goods, and a few very rich who own most…

> The bankrupt notion that somehow 'were funding those people' is meaningless. The factories pour out the goods. Nobody's slaving away to 'fund' that. Somebody has to create, build, and maintain those factories. Someone else has to manage the output of those factories and distribute it. Someone else needs to work to secure raw materials for the factory. Age you can't produce everything in factories. You don't have a…

Your example of farms is rather poorly put. Modern farms (thinking of corn and wheat and other staple crops) cover hundreds of acres and are managed by 4-5 people. Farms of this size couldn't exist in the past because they required too large of a workforce.

And, given the current state of automation, most of the work to maintain those farms is highly automated; the operators are mostly monitoring screens from non-integrated screens and acting as a simple PID controller.

Where did all of those thousands of previously employed farm hands go? Into the factories. But as they're pushed out of the factories, where do they go next?

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#96

Post by chillacy » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:50 PM UTC

gustavo-fring wrote: post #65

nicbou wrote: post #51

Last year, I had something that was very close to basic income (income-generating website that doesn't require active babysitting). I knew a life without work would be amazing, but I never expected it to be this great. I had much more time and energy to enjoy life. There was never a rush to do anything. I woke up when I wasn't tired. I could read in bed for an hour if it felt right. Sometimes I'd just walk 3-5 kilome…

You didn't have UBI, you had a well-paying job. The main UBI proposals for the US target $1k per month and that target means a budget of about 3 trillion per year and does not take into account health insurance. I don't know about you, but living off $1k a month where I live (and it's a relatively cheap area) isn't feasible. Either you get roommates or you are going to end up in the cheapest most out of the way apart…

To get really pendantic, OP never said "UBI" anywhere in the post, they said "basic income", which is very different. UBI is the dream of many advocates of BI but a BI for instance could be given only to some and not others.

Criticizing the post about a specific vision of UBI strikes me as overly combative (and putting words in OP's mouth).

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#97

Post by tomp » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:54 PM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #51

Last year, I had something that was very close to basic income (income-generating website that doesn't require active babysitting). I knew a life without work would be amazing, but I never expected it to be this great. I had much more time and energy to enjoy life. There was never a rush to do anything. I woke up when I wasn't tired. I could read in bed for an hour if it felt right. Sometimes I'd just walk 3-5 kilome…

> wish everyone was given the chance to enjoy life on their own terms

Did anyone ever argue against it? The point of UBI isn’t that anyone wouldn’t want to get it - it’s that noone can pay for it (or rather, we as a society cannot).

I think COVID nicely shows what happens if the society stops working - labour shortages, soon translated into food and material shortages. Some (e.g. in the UK) are even paid by the government, it’s basically a temporary UBI!

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#98

Post by luckylion » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:56 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #29

luckylion wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Be as cynical as you like. But people's lives are their own. Are they though? Who exactly would fund the self-actualization adventures of the lucky recipients, if not other people? I'm guessing here, but I assume the funding wouldn't be voluntary. In that case, those people's lives are not their own, those people's lives (and the results of them spending parts of their lives at work) are shared. > Now that it's app…

Again, 1950's thinking. Most things are automated now. There's only 13M factory workers left in America vs 20M+ in the 70's, and population has doubled since then. So maybe 20% what there used to be. All that due to automation. And what's left is being automated as fast as humanly possible. After that, we're gonna have a big slug of people out of work, lots of relatively cheap goods, and a few very rich who own most…

> Most things are automated now. There's only 13M factory workers left in America vs 20M+ in the 70's, and population has doubled since then.

You're mistaking automation for outsourcing. The factory workers are still around, only they're in China now. Yes, we've automated some things but we're building other stuff now. Much like, yes, we have power tools today, but we're also not only building simple, uninsulated houses.

Dream your utopia, but don't forget that real people still do 14 hour shifts to supply you with the goods you desire, not some highly automated robot in some hidden factory under the streets of your city. It's just that most of these people are n ocean away now, so you don't need to see them and get your happy life disturbed by seeing their living conditions compared to yours.

The goods pour out of the factories, the power is generated by the the wall outlet, the internet lives in the cable and water flows directly from the tap. The magical world of tomorrow. I know, I know, "some day it will all be automated, just you wait". Yeah, let's wait until that's actually in sight and not just hidden away behind a tiny robot moving the product the last 500 feet to your door. It isn't in sight today and it won't be tomorrow.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#99

Post by tehjoker » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:56 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #84

nicbou wrote: post #51

Last year, I had something that was very close to basic income (income-generating website that doesn't require active babysitting). I knew a life without work would be amazing, but I never expected it to be this great. I had much more time and energy to enjoy life. There was never a rush to do anything. I woke up when I wasn't tired. I could read in bed for an hour if it felt right. Sometimes I'd just walk 3-5 kilome…

You have to be really careful about generalizing from "personally getting regular free money" to everyone getting it. Under a UBI, everyone , unconditionally[1], gets the free money. That has significantly different dynamics than you alone getting it. What happens to rents, for example? If everyone's income goes up, so does the rent. If everyone wanted to live in the same places, for the same reasons, and suddenly ha…

We could always make renting above cost of construction and maintenance illegal and have the state build public housing, but this is unpopular with landlords and aspiring landlords.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#100

Post by luckylion » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:59 PM UTC

hnarn wrote: post #73

nicbou wrote: post #51

Last year, I had something that was very close to basic income (income-generating website that doesn't require active babysitting). I knew a life without work would be amazing, but I never expected it to be this great. I had much more time and energy to enjoy life. There was never a rush to do anything. I woke up when I wasn't tired. I could read in bed for an hour if it felt right. Sometimes I'd just walk 3-5 kilome…

Some people may not agree with me but I've always felt that there's an interesting take on our history: Throughout most of civilization, most types of progress has been the result of the intellectual work of an elite. Most progress in science, art, and pretty much anything comes from a "noble" or some kind of free man either doing it themselves, or directly financing someone who did. Most people today probably wouldn…

> Quite the opposite, you want to make sure that all goods and services are being provided, but only enough so that the primary goal can be achieved: to give people as much stress-free spare time as possible without breaking the economy.

That's solved. 10 square meters, 18°C during winter, 2500 calories a day, and basic health insurance. It's cheap enough that we can supply that to everyone. It's just that people want 40 square meters, 22°C and food that's tasty and diverse and not just nutritious, and they want entertainment and technology etc etc. The basics can easily be taken care of (and are in most Western nations), but nobody wants to be limited to the basics.

> I hope to see societies and economies that prioritize something else than short term economical gain and meaningless widgets that get thrown in a pile after years or even months.

It's the majority of people that prioritize that which you do not like, it's not some hidden force that makes them. You might give them something else: bring back religion. Not for the elites, but for the masses. The void has to be filled. If you don't want to fill it with consumption, fill it with something else.