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Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

theguardian.com

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Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#81

Post by zpeti »

nicbou wrote: post #51

Last year, I had something that was very close to basic income (income-generating website that doesn't require active babysitting). I knew a life without work would be amazing, but I never expected it to be this great. I had much more time and energy to enjoy life. There was never a rush to do anything. I woke up when I wasn't tired. I could read in bed for an hour if it felt right. Sometimes I'd just walk 3-5 kilome…

You built a passive income business. You were living off your own entrepreneurship. You chose to live off your previous work, and not work as much. It was your achievement and you should be proud that you achieved it. In the back of your mind you also knew that you’re the one who did it and you could possibly do it again.

This is not UBI and it’s certainly not the long term mental state of someone on UBI.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#82

Post by grecy »

nicbou wrote: post #51

Last year, I had something that was very close to basic income (income-generating website that doesn't require active babysitting). I knew a life without work would be amazing, but I never expected it to be this great. I had much more time and energy to enjoy life. There was never a rush to do anything. I woke up when I wasn't tired. I could read in bed for an hour if it felt right. Sometimes I'd just walk 3-5 kilome…

I've chosen to do this twice now, and echo your sentiments

After saving for 2 years I quit my software job and spent two years driving from Alaksa to Argentina. I went on multi-day hiking trips, I poked lava with a stick, I paddled with icebergs, went scuba diving and camped in the mountains of Alaska and Patagonia.

I got up when I pleased, I cooked my own food (except when street food was stupid-cheap) and I worked on my passion projects (photography and writing at the time).

That experience changed my life, and after four more years saving money at a desk job, I quit again and spent three years driving around Africa.

I woke up to elephants and giraffes less than thirty yards from my Jeep-camper-house, I met tens of thousands of extremely friendly people and I ate delicious foods. I had adventures off the scale in the Congo, Sudan and Mali, I swam in white-sand paradise beaches in Mozambique and Ivory Coast and I again worked on my passion projects.

I certainly was "working" on the second trip - I wrote a couple of books, wrote for magazines, blogged, filmed video, etc. but I did it on my own terms. I could sleep in and take a rest day whenever I wanted, and I have not used an alarm for more than five years now.

Work on your own terms is so much more enjoyable, and life has a different focus. I highly, highly recommend people give it a shot!

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#83

Post by ceejayoz »

gustavo-fring wrote: post #77
logjammin wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make good points, but you may be missing why OP's comment is getting the upvotes it's getting, or at least why I'd wager it is: he describes the kind of contentment that most of us can't even imagine possessing without winning the lottery, and he described having that contentment with surprisingly (to him/her) modest means. I can't speak for anyone else, but this is why I upvoted it. Hell, I can think of at least…

He's not giving us the full story. Did he have health insurance (seems like he's in Germany, so yeah)? I made under $30k this past year and did not have health insurance. I promise you that I'd rather have that than try to live off $1k a month. If it sounds so great to you, I challenge you to live off that amount and see if it is as grand as he describes. I'm guessing he's making more than $1k. There are a lot of men…

Implementing UBI without universal healthcare certainly would be a silly approach, yes.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#84

Post by SilasX »

nicbou wrote: post #51

Last year, I had something that was very close to basic income (income-generating website that doesn't require active babysitting). I knew a life without work would be amazing, but I never expected it to be this great. I had much more time and energy to enjoy life. There was never a rush to do anything. I woke up when I wasn't tired. I could read in bed for an hour if it felt right. Sometimes I'd just walk 3-5 kilome…

You have to be really careful about generalizing from "personally getting regular free money" to everyone getting it. Under a UBI, everyone, unconditionally[1], gets the free money. That has significantly different dynamics than you alone getting it.

What happens to rents, for example? If everyone's income goes up, so does the rent. If everyone wanted to live in the same places, for the same reasons, and suddenly has higher incomes, they would bid up the rent, just as they do in well-paying urban areas. Would you be so comfortable if everyone used that free money and it established the bare minimum for living expenses?

And before you say it -- yes, I know, the core problem there is actually rent eating up everyone's discretionary income, their "slack" -- hence why I advocate dealing with that problem first (not just rent, but every such eater -- healthcare, education, etc) before letting those things leech the UBI too [2].

[1] yes, yes, up to the age/citizenship eligibility requirements, you get the point

[2] My earlier elucidation of this point: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22604788

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#85

Post by gustavo-fring »

ceejayoz wrote: post #83
gustavo-fring wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not giving us the full story. Did he have health insurance (seems like he's in Germany, so yeah)? I made under $30k this past year and did not have health insurance. I promise you that I'd rather have that than try to live off $1k a month. If it sounds so great to you, I challenge you to live off that amount and see if it is as grand as he describes. I'm guessing he's making more than $1k. There are a lot of men…

Implementing UBI without universal healthcare certainly would be a silly approach, yes.

Is the thought process that we can or are going to get both universal healthcare passed (even the Democrats can't agree on this) and UBI passed in this political environment? It's going to take a bigger crisis than covid-19 to do that.

It's also not the usual argument you hear from UBI proponents (we can reduce costs because we only need UBI).

I don't say this to be a dick, but political change has to happen within political realities.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#86

Post by ceejayoz »

gustavo-fring wrote: post #85
ceejayoz wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Implementing UBI without universal healthcare certainly would be a silly approach, yes.

Is the thought process that we can or are going to get both universal healthcare passed (even the Democrats can't agree on this) and UBI passed in this political environment? It's going to take a bigger crisis than covid-19 to do that. It's also not the usual argument you hear from UBI proponents (we can reduce costs because we only need UBI). I don't say this to be a dick, but political change has to happen within p…

I share your skepticism that it can get done in the US any time soon. We can't even get people to wear masks during a pandemic.

The article in question is about Finland, where healthcare is already universal, largely free, and much liked by the populace.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#87

Post by chillacy »

SilasX wrote: post #84
nicbou wrote: post #51

Last year, I had something that was very close to basic income (income-generating website that doesn't require active babysitting). I knew a life without work would be amazing, but I never expected it to be this great. I had much more time and energy to enjoy life. There was never a rush to do anything. I woke up when I wasn't tired. I could read in bed for an hour if it felt right. Sometimes I'd just walk 3-5 kilome…

You have to be really careful about generalizing from "personally getting regular free money" to everyone getting it. Under a UBI, everyone , unconditionally[1], gets the free money. That has significantly different dynamics than you alone getting it. What happens to rents, for example? If everyone's income goes up, so does the rent. If everyone wanted to live in the same places, for the same reasons, and suddenly ha…

I'm not saying that rent won't go up, but depending on the UBI scheme it probably won't go up 1:1.

Rent goes up because there are more people looking for a limited resource in urban areas: if you want to work in the city you must live near the city. A UBI that isn't tied to location makes it easier for people to live elsewhere, which reduces demand.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#88

Post by drdeadringer »

zpeti wrote: post #81
nicbou wrote: post #51

Last year, I had something that was very close to basic income (income-generating website that doesn't require active babysitting). I knew a life without work would be amazing, but I never expected it to be this great. I had much more time and energy to enjoy life. There was never a rush to do anything. I woke up when I wasn't tired. I could read in bed for an hour if it felt right. Sometimes I'd just walk 3-5 kilome…

You built a passive income business. You were living off your own entrepreneurship. You chose to live off your previous work, and not work as much. It was your achievement and you should be proud that you achieved it. In the back of your mind you also knew that you’re the one who did it and you could possibly do it again. This is not UBI and it’s certainly not the long term mental state of someone on UBI.

> the long term mental state of someone on UBI

What is?

Some form or variation of learned helplessness? Something else?

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#89

Post by JoeAltmaier »

irishcoffee wrote: post #70
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a free market. Folks imagine that prices will 'soak up' UBI magically. But the market doesn't work that way. In fact, when demand goes up and volume goes up, prices come down for most things.

Surely you realize that demand and volume for college has gone up in the US. Also, the US gives out unlimited "free" money to attend. (student loans) And "magically" the pice of college has in fact skyrocketed, or even "soaked up" the excess money.

Because colleges were in the 'money pipe', and could gatekeep. In a free market (which I guess colleges aren't) it would not work that way.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#90

Post by gustavo-fring »

ceejayoz wrote: post #86
gustavo-fring wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the thought process that we can or are going to get both universal healthcare passed (even the Democrats can't agree on this) and UBI passed in this political environment? It's going to take a bigger crisis than covid-19 to do that. It's also not the usual argument you hear from UBI proponents (we can reduce costs because we only need UBI). I don't say this to be a dick, but political change has to happen within p…

I share your skepticism that it can get done in the US any time soon. We can't even get people to wear masks during a pandemic. The article in question is about Finland, where healthcare is already universal, largely free, and much liked by the populace.

That's totally fair. I am looking at this through a very US-centric lens, but I'd guess many HN readers are, and certainly Yang's tech supporters were. To also be fair, the user we are talking about doesn't appear to be Finnish or is the study in question true UBI. But that's all pedantic. :)
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