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Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

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Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not saying we should shrug and say anything goes. I’m saying all these companies share one commonality - the are building things for the US government. If you want to see change that is more than just superficial, that’s where you need to make it.

Sure. That doesn't mean that what Palantir are doing isn't wrong - selling tools to an entity which is going to use them for harm is wrong, even if they might result in slightly less harm than selling them some other tool. If someone comes into a gun shop and tells you they want to shoot up a classroom, selling them a pistol instead of a machine gun doesn't make you immune from judgement.

What makes Palantir different than any other software vendor that sells to the government?

Want to know how a lot of that data is generated? Microsoft excel. Arguably without excel there would be less data to act abusively with. If only Microsoft just refused to sell excel to the government.

People are happy to accept that excel is general enough that it isn’t made for that one purpose, but refuse to apply the same reasoning to Palantir; that may seem like whataboutism, but they genuinely are comparable tools if you take away the marketing and fear mongering.

As for your analogy, it’s more like you own shop that makes metalworking tools, and someone buys some. You don’t know what they are going to do with it, and (here’s where it gets opinionated) you shouldn’t need to care. You sold a tool to someone. Can the tool be used to make a gun? Sure. But it can also be used for anything else involving metal work. At some point we need to accept that the responsibility for how a tool of used needs to be placed on the person using it.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#542
post #371

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

I think the notion of trusting any company over a certain size is crazy - I wish people would stop anthropomorphizing companies that way. Basically, I can trust specific people if I feel that I know their character, and by proxy I might trust a company that these people have significant control over. Once a company reaches a certain size, any power that individual employees wield will have been diluted to microscopic…

Regarding Apple's relationship with privacy, I implore you to take a gander at these pages:

https://apple.com/privacy (45 second read)

https://apple.com/privacy/features (many minute read with links to whitepapers)

I believe this goes well beyond following instinct, and at least for me does lead to a strong semblance of trust.

They really did a doozy by not being upfront about Siri's contractors (I already knew so it didn't affect me personally), and they're hemming on E2E iCloud backups (perhaps for Availability, perhaps for China), but they continue to push the envelope on what usable security and usable privacy looks like.

In addition; the iPhone 5s from 2013 is still getting security patches, as recently as March 24th.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#543
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe it is unethical to work on weapons technology any more than I believe it is unethical to be member of the armed forces. We live in a world with bad actors, so some amount of work on defense is necessary for survival. However, I also believe you are responsible for the consequences of the technology you create. If you decide to work on smart bombs and because of a bad government those end up killing in…

It seems to me that your second paragraph directly and immediately contradicts your first. I don’t think both of those can be true simultaneously, unless you somehow consider “having blood on your hands” to be ethical.

The "if" is significant. If you work on weapons that turn out to be used to stop legitimately bad actors with minimal collateral damage, then your hands are as clean as anyone's can be in war.

I don't generally believe in black and white, so I'm making no claims that anything is 100% ethical, 100% unethical, 100% blood on your hands, etc. I think it's possible for good people to work on weapons and still sleep soundly at night. I also think it's possible for good people to work on weapons and end up regretting the consequences of that choice.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#544
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to be driving test numbers up until only 3-5% are showing positive in order to be confident about low prevalence in an area. I don't see a problem with false positives encouraging asymptomatic people to get tested - it's as good of a sub-population as any.

The project lead of Singapore's TraceTogether initiative goes into detail about the problems with an automated system, and why a human-in-the-loop is ideally required to evaluate the type of contact and make a determination. A determination around being a close contact results in 14-day isolation regardless of symptoms, presumably because you may initially test negative before moving into an infectious and asymptomat…

14 day isolation was a policy choice. There is no reason that other municipalities do the same. We can discover a balance that keeps local r < 1.0

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#545
post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've long felt like Apple is uniquely easy to distrust, due to its almost total lack of visible employees. I assume there are actual people working there, but I've never seen one, say, speak (openly) at a meetup or answer a stackoverflow question, or the like. ~Everything I know about Apple either comes from an advertisement or from a guy who talked to a guy who talked to Gruber, and I have a feeling that that makes…

I've met an Apple employee at a conference, just once. Talking to him was reminiscent of talking to an employee of GCHQ (which I have also done). Relaxed and affable, but wielded the phrase "I can't tell you that" with the familiarity of one who says it several times a day.

Sounds about right. A pretty good friend of mine worked at Apple for a year or two, and I once asked if he enjoyed his time there. He answered: "no comment".

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#546
post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you consider company going public as change-of-control that should trigger voiding trademarks?

Defining what represents a change-of-control is probably the trickiest part of moving this from an interesting idea to a real proposal. Probably, the key factor should be whether or not the senior management and/or the board membership stays essentially the same; new management should be required to earn their own trust from customers that might not follow company news.

The purpose here is also likely to be very different for different use cases. You might not want the Apple trademark to be transferable as the management changes because you care about their approach to privacy. On the other hand, a consumer who thinks Diet Coke is tasty probably doesn't want to have to look up what brand name they were forced to change to when the CEO quit just to keep buying their favorite soda at the grocery store.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a lifelong public servant, welcome to the ungrateful side of life. If you're providing a service to the public with the hopes of their gratitude, you will be sad. Do it for the same reason you change your baby's diaper: you love them and it needs doing. They might take pleasure in pissing on you while you're doing it, but this thing you love will be better off afterward.

Let's not compare apple to a public institution. What apple does is in the interest of the shareholders and nothing else.

>What apple does is in the interest of the shareholders and nothing else

Honestly what is with this attitude? Yeah, I get it.. you took a business class and learned that everything a company does should be to maximize shareholder value.

But welcome to the real world. Sure the company wants to make money, but they also want to provide a valuable service. Yeah sometimes making money gets in the way with the best product they could offer.

But it's people making the decisions of what to make. It's people who use the software (let's say osx/ios) that want to make it better. It's developers who sit there are think how can they improve this feature so it's great for people.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the point of armies, to be as lethal and effective as possible. A protracted war benefits no one, and a powerful army acts as a deterrent. I think that if you think your country has the right to self-defense, you have a moral obligation to make it as lethal as possible. Ethics is not an excuse for inaction or abandonment of responsibility.

I think this calculus becomes slightly different when you're talking about a nation that will never be in an existential defensive war. A protracted war benefits no one, but knowing that a war would be protracted might benefit the side that would otherwise be the loser by serving as a deterrent to the winner.

A protracted war benefits the military of the weaker side but I doubt their people would like it. Also, I can't recall the last time the United States was deterred from entering war because it would last too long.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, I also believe you are responsible for the consequences of the technology you create. I agree with this to an extent, but at the same time, technologies you develop can go well beyond what you intended them to be. Do you think Ritchie knew C would be used the way it is today? It is used in UAVs, smart missiles, and more. Building faster algorithms also means faster weapons. Everyone working at SpaceX is di…

Not to mention https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fertilizer-runoff...

Going even further, those researchers are at ORNL, which is a DOE lab. (ORNL itself isn't a weapons lab, but other DOE labs are)

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's libertarians, and then there's libertarians. Thiel is a huge fan of Hans Hermann-Hoppe, who writes things like: "In a covenant concluded among proprietor and community tenants for the purpose of protecting their private property, no such thing as a right to free (unlimited) speech exists, not even to unlimited speech on one's own tenant-property. One may say innumerable things and promote almost any idea unde…

Just because Thiel has referenced this speaker before doesn’t mean he agrees with everything he says. It’s a bit suspicious Thiel would agree that talk of “promoting“ homosexuality should get someone expelled from society. Do you have any references showing Thiel believes these words you quoted?

Thiel didn't just reference Hoppe - he praised him and spoke at his conferences.

In general, Thiel's political opinions are hardly a secret; you can read his own words at https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/educatio...:

"I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible"

This is literally the primary thesis of Hoppe's book.

And note that Hoppe's isn't saying that promoting homosexuality should get one expelled from society, but rather from communities with "covenants" that restrict it. This arrangement is all about one-dollar-one-vote, so rich people needn't worry - they can live however they want, even establishing their own "covenant" if need be.

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