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Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

reuters.com

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Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#451

Post by willyt »

m12k wrote: post #371
azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

I think the notion of trusting any company over a certain size is crazy - I wish people would stop anthropomorphizing companies that way. Basically, I can trust specific people if I feel that I know their character, and by proxy I might trust a company that these people have significant control over. Once a company reaches a certain size, any power that individual employees wield will have been diluted to microscopic…

But the proposed solution in the U.K. and Australia is worse for privacy and is only subject to the scrutiny of the citizens of that country compared to the scrutiny of the entire planet for Apple and Google. Ultimately, if you don’t trust them, don’t take your phone out with you. Because any one of Apple, Google, Amazon, Huewai, Samsung or whoever could start tracking you with a simple software update at any time. Likewise don’t drive a car made in the last few years.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#453

Post by have_faith »

rorykoehler wrote: post #420
azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

Companies shouldn't be allow to become as rich and powerful as Apple. We're supposed to live in a democratic system. Corporate power on the scale of FAANG is the antithesis of democracy.

Thought experiment: People willingly giving this power over to an alternative group of people (a company in this case) could be considered a democratic vote from a populace? Providing power is willingly given to them by the actions of the group.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#454

Post by asdf_iiifi »

m12k wrote: post #371
azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

I think the notion of trusting any company over a certain size is crazy - I wish people would stop anthropomorphizing companies that way. Basically, I can trust specific people if I feel that I know their character, and by proxy I might trust a company that these people have significant control over. Once a company reaches a certain size, any power that individual employees wield will have been diluted to microscopic…

Correct. I'm an avid Apple product user (a dozen Apple products in the house actively used at the moment), but it's obvious that "privacy" was a PR push against rivals that had little or no impact on their bottom line.

If Apple relied on private info for revenue, the warm smile would be the same but the wording would be very different.

Still, the problem is more along the axis of technology. Even if Apple open-sourced their entire stack, we'd still have to take their word for what was running on our phones at any given moment. Encryption protects us but also ensures we can't know what information is sent from our phones to Apple. Hardware security, which protects us as well, turns our phones into a black box.

Are Apple good guys? Well, we could have a whistleblower come forward with evidence that they're not but a lack of whistleblowers isn't evidence that they are. If the entire stack isn't auditable by 3rd parties then we're just going on faith.

Personally, I'm ok with it. I like the aesthetics of Apple products more than their rivals. The threat to me, if it exists, isn't large enough for me to worry about.

If I were a criminal, I wouldn't trust my iPhone for a second.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#455

Post by crushthecurve »

crushthecurve wrote: post #350
orasis wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to be driving test numbers up until only 3-5% are showing positive in order to be confident about low prevalence in an area. I don't see a problem with false positives encouraging asymptomatic people to get tested - it's as good of a sub-population as any.

The project lead of Singapore's TraceTogether initiative goes into detail about the problems with an automated system, and why a human-in-the-loop is ideally required to evaluate the type of contact and make a determination. A determination around being a close contact results in 14-day isolation regardless of symptoms, presumably because you may initially test negative before moving into an infectious and asymptomat…

It's worth re-iterating how unreliable bluetooth signal strength is in estimating proximity.

One recent data point using the CovidSafe app is here: https://twitter.com/jim_mussared/status/1256199078314078210

Exploration around the defects in that app is ongoing here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u5a5ersKBH6eG362atALrzuX...

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#456

Post by wojtekkru »

kd5bjo wrote: post #409
m12k wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the notion of trusting any company over a certain size is crazy - I wish people would stop anthropomorphizing companies that way. Basically, I can trust specific people if I feel that I know their character, and by proxy I might trust a company that these people have significant control over. Once a company reaches a certain size, any power that individual employees wield will have been diluted to microscopic…

I’ve thought for a while that trademarks should be non-transferrable, and should be voided on change-of-control of a company. Their primary purpose is to let the consumer know the origin of goods, and to allow companies to build a reputation around intangible properties of their products, like longevity, quality, and craftsmanship. Selling a trademark is fundamentally betraying that trust in exchange for a monetary r…

Would you consider company going public as change-of-control that should trigger voiding trademarks?

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#457

Post by emn13 »

blauditore wrote: post #427
m12k wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the notion of trusting any company over a certain size is crazy - I wish people would stop anthropomorphizing companies that way. Basically, I can trust specific people if I feel that I know their character, and by proxy I might trust a company that these people have significant control over. Once a company reaches a certain size, any power that individual employees wield will have been diluted to microscopic…

I kind of disagree with this. If a company publicly claims to follow certain principles and vows to have mechanisms in place to protect user privacy, people on the inside are able to judge if those principles are being followed. The larger a company is, the lower are chances that everyone would stay silent in case of a (systematic) breach of those principles. So in a sense, it's much harder for larger companies to se…

If we were to outlaw NDA's and dramatically beef up whistleblower protections for corporate whistleblowers, that might work. But those are wildly implausible proposals! And while people are bad at keeping nefarious conspiracies secret, they're quite capable of keeping quiet in general - which happens to protect the less egregious but more relevant kind of grey-area, pushing the boundaries that slowly evolves. Just look at all kinds of corporate and governmental malfeasance stories to see that it's pretty normal for ethically dubious behavior to go on for years if not decades before it comes out. Most of it probably never comes out.

People can't keep crazy conspiracies secret very well, but are completely capable of keeping eroding standards quiet.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#458

Post by kd5bjo »

wojtekkru wrote: post #456
kd5bjo wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve thought for a while that trademarks should be non-transferrable, and should be voided on change-of-control of a company. Their primary purpose is to let the consumer know the origin of goods, and to allow companies to build a reputation around intangible properties of their products, like longevity, quality, and craftsmanship. Selling a trademark is fundamentally betraying that trust in exchange for a monetary r…

Would you consider company going public as change-of-control that should trigger voiding trademarks?

Defining what represents a change-of-control is probably the trickiest part of moving this from an interesting idea to a real proposal. Probably, the key factor should be whether or not the senior management and/or the board membership stays essentially the same; new management should be required to earn their own trust from customers that might not follow company news.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#459

Post by sadfklsjlkjwt »

maxhille wrote: post #367
agakshat wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, for sure, that’s a choice users have. (On the iphone too, fwiw). Sadly, outside of tech circles very few people would have the knowledge or even motivation to do this. The attitudes of the populace to online privacy are frighteningly callous.

Since Android 10, the system will prompt you once the app tries to get the locarion in background and you can opt out with one click.

Sadly the ability to detect WiFi network is under the background location tracking permission.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#460

Post by alkonaut »

arcticbull wrote: post #328
azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

As a former Apple employee, it's gutsy for you to post this, or anything, certainly on a controversial topic. You don't work for the kind of employer that values someone sticking their head out and saying ... anything. They want to control the message, and saying anything may be worse for both you, and for Apple, than saying nothing. Just be careful. Apple's got the people to manage this PR situation.

> it's gutsy for you to post this,

That comment seems completely neutral. Not being able to post that comment without worrying about consequences sounds absolutely dystopian.

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