Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#351

Post by Legogris » Tue, May 05, 2020, 6:16 AM UTC

nindalf wrote: post #347

Legogris wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Release the source code and provide some mechanism for users to have verifiable proof that the published code matches the application running on the device and we can start talking about trust. Given past track record of both companies, this is the only way I would ever have of not being skeptical.

Do you have some evidence that Apple and Google run backdoors to privacy on iOS or Android devices? You speak about the track record of both companies, surely you should be able to point out several examples of this. The spec seems pretty clear - it's not possible. If you feel that you don't trust them to implement the spec correctly due to incompetence or malice on their part - you need to supply the proof. If we're…

There's arguably a lot more evidence against Google than Apple here. But Apple did lie about their involvement, or even knowledge of, the PRISM program. Snowden leaks. I highly recommend Glenn Grennwald's book No Place to Hide if you're not interested in digging though sources yourself.

Even against their will, companies with capabilities can and have been compelled by government agencies to go against their promises and lie about it.

Additionally, with organizations of this size, it's very plausible that the vast majority of employees and even executives are blissfully unaware of wrongdoings, abuse and involvement in conspiracy by individual employees or decision makers.

All it takes is a single compromised or malicious person to add new capabilities in an update to an already rolled-out and well-intentioned software. Possibly a handful if you add strongly enforced and audited mechanisms for co-signing releases and whatnot.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#352

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Tue, May 05, 2020, 6:17 AM UTC

uluyol wrote: post #336

coliveira wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having Google/Apple develop a tracking technology is the same as the US government having it. If you don't believe, read again what Snowden revealed several years ago.

What? I don't think this is accurate. From what I recall, the US was/is spying on the major tech companies and would regularly demand data and place gag orders on those companies. Neither actions are willful forms of data transfer. The first is actually an eternal game of cat and mouse. NSA finds a leak for some data, Google fixes it, new leak, etc. The second is targeted handover of data, and only affects a few indi…

> is spying on the major tech companies and would regularly demand data and place gag orders on those companies.

So you agree.

> Neither actions are willful forms of data transfer.

What’s that got to do with it?

> Equating these with the US government having full access to everyone's data is misleading.

If the data exists, the only prudent approach is to assume state-level actors, at least, can get access to it.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#353

Post by rapnie » Tue, May 05, 2020, 6:19 AM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #328

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

As a former Apple employee, it's gutsy for you to post this, or anything, certainly on a controversial topic. You don't work for the kind of employer that values someone sticking their head out and saying ... anything. They want to control the message, and saying anything may be worse for both you, and for Apple, than saying nothing. Just be careful. Apple's got the people to manage this PR situation.

That does not imbibe more trust in me regarding the corporate world, Apple this time. Big corporates have done many things to erode it, just like governments did. As we all know, trust leaves on horseback, comes back on foot. And in current 'distrust-first' society with populism feeding the gut, it may not come back at all for quite some time.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#354

Post by matheusmoreira » Tue, May 05, 2020, 6:21 AM UTC

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

How's anti-vaccination in any way comparable to lack of trust in corporations? We have decades of evidence showing the efficacy of vaccines. Ask any old pediatrician what hospitals were like before vaccines. Can Apple and Google produce equally strong evidence that their new surveillance system will reduce mortality and be resistant to abuse?

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#355

Post by verve_rat » Tue, May 05, 2020, 6:21 AM UTC

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

Apple is not an "institution". A arm of government or a long standing NGO are institutions. Apple is a business, it shouldn't get institutional trust.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#356

Post by tastroder » Tue, May 05, 2020, 6:22 AM UTC

coliveira wrote: post #321

bjz_ wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Australian who has privacy concerns their government's COVIDSafe app (see https://github.com/vteague/contactTracing ), and hence not installing it, I'm really thankful that Apple and Google are pushing this model of contact tracing. We still don't know if digital contact tracing is effective in practice, but it's still important to try, but we can do this in a way that avoids giving governments with worrying au…

Having Google/Apple develop a tracking technology is the same as the US government having it. If you don't believe, read again what Snowden revealed several years ago.

Google and Apple are the ones pushing for isolating where this data lives and how it can be used/abused here. They are doing this in an effort to curb far more dangerous data collection on the very same devices in architectures that infer location or send off all data that is gathered on central servers. Your comment boils down to "Gapple is evil because Snowden" and seems to be disconnected from the specific issue at hand. They are OS manufacturers, if they wanted to get malicious access to all kinds of tracing data they would have had to do exactly nothing.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#357

Post by numpad0 » Tue, May 05, 2020, 6:22 AM UTC

fenomas wrote: post #308

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

I've long felt like Apple is uniquely easy to distrust, due to its almost total lack of visible employees. I assume there are actual people working there, but I've never seen one, say, speak (openly) at a meetup or answer a stackoverflow question, or the like. ~Everything I know about Apple either comes from an advertisement or from a guy who talked to a guy who talked to Gruber, and I have a feeling that that makes…

I’ve seen an Apple engineer in non-GUI or hardware job talking on his blog about curvatures he encounter over the course of his job, so that definitely happens sometimes.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#358

Post by alkonaut » Tue, May 05, 2020, 6:22 AM UTC

If you don't trust Google and Apple when they say their API does what they say it does, then you can't use an iPhone or Android phone.

I understand that people are conscious about these things but what I don't understand is how people say "oh I'd never run an app using an API from google/apple, they have a horrible track record" and then carry a phone in their pocket with an OS from either Google or Apple, where those companies can basically do whatever they want. If you carry such a phone you already trust them. If this API does what it says it does (basically exchange random numbers) then how is that worse than what you already trust your phone to do?

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#359

Post by dgellow » Tue, May 05, 2020, 6:22 AM UTC

uluyol wrote: post #336

coliveira wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having Google/Apple develop a tracking technology is the same as the US government having it. If you don't believe, read again what Snowden revealed several years ago.

What? I don't think this is accurate. From what I recall, the US was/is spying on the major tech companies and would regularly demand data and place gag orders on those companies. Neither actions are willful forms of data transfer. The first is actually an eternal game of cat and mouse. NSA finds a leak for some data, Google fixes it, new leak, etc. The second is targeted handover of data, and only affects a few indi…

You should maybe read Permanent Record from Snowden. Everything you describe is outdated since his whistleblowing in 2013.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#360

Post by killjoywashere » Tue, May 05, 2020, 6:25 AM UTC

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

As a lifelong public servant, welcome to the ungrateful side of life. If you're providing a service to the public with the hopes of their gratitude, you will be sad. Do it for the same reason you change your baby's diaper: you love them and it needs doing. They might take pleasure in pissing on you while you're doing it, but this thing you love will be better off afterward.