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Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

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431–440 of 568 posts

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#431
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Australian who has privacy concerns their government's COVIDSafe app (see https://github.com/vteague/contactTracing ), and hence not installing it, I'm really thankful that Apple and Google are pushing this model of contact tracing. We still don't know if digital contact tracing is effective in practice, but it's still important to try, but we can do this in a way that avoids giving governments with worrying au…

Having Google/Apple develop a tracking technology is the same as the US government having it. If you don't believe, read again what Snowden revealed several years ago.

> Having Google/Apple develop a tracking technology is the same as the US government having it.

This is why you want an API that never uses any data you don't want anyone else to have. That's what this API is.

The "trust" here isn't about whether they'll keep your data safe from third parties including state level actors. Your "trust" only needs to be that the API does what it says on the tin.

Which leads to this conclusion: either you A) trust this API to be what it says: something that doesn't ever deal with any sensitive data. Basically an exchange of random numbers.

Or B) you think that there is something nefarious here and the API might associate who you are or where you are, and store or distribute that data.

If it's A) then you should be fine. If you think B) then you shouldn't use a phone from Apple or Google. Because as far as you are aware, they share your location and personal information.

As far as integrity goes, I can't see a situation where you would both accept running an iOS or Android phone but at the same time avoid apps with this API out of privacy concerns!

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#432
post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said P⇒Q; you're asking if that means I believe !P⇒!Q. That is: I'm not saying a company is trustworthy if-and-only-if its employees speak publicly. I'm saying that my mental model of what a company would or wouldn't do internally is strongly influenced by what I know about its employees.

The alternative is that you believe !P⇒Q, in which case you could have easily just said Q

What if there's an R?

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a lifelong public servant, welcome to the ungrateful side of life. If you're providing a service to the public with the hopes of their gratitude, you will be sad. Do it for the same reason you change your baby's diaper: you love them and it needs doing. They might take pleasure in pissing on you while you're doing it, but this thing you love will be better off afterward.

It's nice to have some people like you, but a significant amount of public servants I encountered visibly took pressure in making the life of other's miserable, and the processes as convoluted as possible.

Some people in government want the government to succeed and make people's lives better. Some people in government want the government to fail in all ways besides keeping them and the people they like safe so they can personally benefit and pocket the tax savings on top.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#434
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On your iPhone you can go to Settings -> Privacy -> Location Services -> System Services -> Significant Locations and you will see that Apple does keep track of at least some of your location history and tries to analyze it if you don't actively turn it off.

On my iPhone running iOS 13, I had to go a level deeper to find that: Settings -> Privacy -> Location Services -> System Services -> Significant Locations. To view Significant Locations, I have to provide my Touch ID again. Also, the fine print says "Significant Locations are end-to-end encrypted and cannot be read by Apple." Text repeated in "Location Services & Privacy"[0]. [0] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207…

Is there any negative consequences to turning that off? What are those locations used for?

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#435
post #409
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the notion of trusting any company over a certain size is crazy - I wish people would stop anthropomorphizing companies that way. Basically, I can trust specific people if I feel that I know their character, and by proxy I might trust a company that these people have significant control over. Once a company reaches a certain size, any power that individual employees wield will have been diluted to microscopic…

I’ve thought for a while that trademarks should be non-transferrable, and should be voided on change-of-control of a company. Their primary purpose is to let the consumer know the origin of goods, and to allow companies to build a reputation around intangible properties of their products, like longevity, quality, and craftsmanship. Selling a trademark is fundamentally betraying that trust in exchange for a monetary r…

That's a brilliant proposal.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#436
post #381
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the notion of trusting any company over a certain size is crazy - I wish people would stop anthropomorphizing companies that way. Basically, I can trust specific people if I feel that I know their character, and by proxy I might trust a company that these people have significant control over. Once a company reaches a certain size, any power that individual employees wield will have been diluted to microscopic…

What??? I cannot make any sense out of your comment. No disrespect, but you're jumping around a lot and I do not follow. ETA: Allow me to explain for the downvoters: The size of the company is irrelevant. There are plenty of large companies that have honest leadership. I can trust a fraction of the size of the company, because I trust those people to not work for horrible companies. Trusting a human being and trustin…

There's a world of difference between projecting onto a non-living entity the properties of an animal, or those of a human - so I don't understand why you think what I did was an anthropomorphism. And I find the analogy to animals quite apt to be honest: Humans can have all sorts of motivations, including morality, and if you know that about a person, you can trust them. By comparison, wild animals (at least excluding primates, whales and dolphins) are driven almost exclusively by much simpler motivations, such as getting food or procreating, much the same way large companies are driven simply to generate profit and shareholder value. I don't need to trust a shark, but I can trust it to follow it's shark instincts. I don't need to trust companies, or expect them to care about me, but I trust them to care about their bottom line.

So to be clear: I'm glad Apple and Google are going this route, rather than allow governments to massively track their citizens. And I don't need to trust Apple in order for that to happen, and that's good.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since Android 10, the system will prompt you once the app tries to get the locarion in background and you can opt out with one click.

I've been astonished at the number of apps that are grabbing my location in the background. Espescially since I previously considered myself to be quite on top of the permissions I'd granted my apps.

Android for work can reduce privacy leaks; get Island or another app to set up a work profile on your Android phone, and sign into a secondary account on it so it doesn't have your contacts. Now go to settings and disable location access for work apps. I've stopped paying attention to whether or not apps request location data or contacts access for to this. To prevent the apps from running in the background, just turn off work profile when not using it (or look up Greenify's deep hibernation).

Being on a stock, unrooted phone, the thing I miss most is xprivacy's prompts whenever an app wants to use a permission. I just make sure to check my permissions list every month or so to make sure Google hasn't silently allowed an app update to enable new permissions.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure about Android, but if you're on iOS you have the choice to disable "full location access". In case it's needed to run certain feature in the app, you can choose the "Allow while using" option. I do that will all the apps that require location access: local food delivery, cab services, vehicle rental and what not.

If everyone else with the app has location access enabled it is redundant disabling it. App knows their location, and app knows you’re near them. Location access by proxy.

If you turn off your Bluetooth entirely that should fix it, shouldn't it? Or are they using WiFi as well as Bluetooth?

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#439
post #371

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

I think the notion of trusting any company over a certain size is crazy - I wish people would stop anthropomorphizing companies that way. Basically, I can trust specific people if I feel that I know their character, and by proxy I might trust a company that these people have significant control over. Once a company reaches a certain size, any power that individual employees wield will have been diluted to microscopic…

Agreed. When it comes to corporations and privacy the rule of thumb is guilty until proven innocent.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#440

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

Equating anti vaxxers with corporate skeptics is a surefire way to build trust /s
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