if the goal is 'privacy', I'd think contract tracing is every bit if not more more of a privacy concern than is location
How so? You're an anonymous identifier in this system.
Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system
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Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system
#222Earlier quoted context omitted.
And we would think the same about Lockheed, Raytheon or IBM. Just because there'll always be someone without morals doesn't mean we just shrug and say anything goes.
I’m not saying we should shrug and say anything goes. I’m saying all these companies share one commonality - the are building things for the US government. If you want to see change that is more than just superficial, that’s where you need to make it.
That's just it: I don't want to see that kind of change.
Edit: Changed "we don't" to "I don't". I don't want to claim to speak for anyone else but myself.
Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system
#223Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe you can’t convince everyone else to behave ethically, but you can hold yourself to that standard. Working on bomb tech is over a line for me personally.
As someone involved with the industry, this is my take. The work defence contractors do and will continue to do is a measurable positive in the world. This work generally falls into three categories: First is projects that make the lives of armed forces personnel easier. There is no moral or ethical hazard with these projects. They simply are making it so that pre-existing work, often non-combat work, is less tedious…
Even those first two can have fairly foreseeable negative effects, though. Not necessarily net negative, mind you, but negative. If (e.g.) American soldiers have less tedium in their downtime (e.g., because paperwork is automated) and are safer (e.g. because their body armor is better), it could very reasonably lead to missions or even whole wars being undertaken that would otherwise be unconscionable. It's kind of like boxing gloves or football pads - on the face of it, it makes things safer, but because everyone knows it's "safer", they're willing to push it further.
Not judging your decision (although I personally prefer not working for defense/defense contractors), just pointing out that "it only makes soldiers safer!" isn't an ironclad rebuttal.
Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system
#224covid19 has become a buzzword factory. Politicians popularize terms like "herd immunity" , "crush the curve", "testing", "ventilators", "PPE" etc to appear to be doing something. "Tracing" is the next in line, but it's a total sham. No country has been able to contain the epidemic with bluetooth. And all the countries that manage the epidemic have first waited until they have very few cases , which can be traced manu…
Would you rather nothing be done? This is potentially a big deal way to automate at scale that has no precedent. It's impossible to say this will/won't work, as it's never been tried.
Perfect is the enemy of progress.
Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system
#225Earlier quoted context omitted.
And we would think the same about Lockheed, Raytheon or IBM. Just because there'll always be someone without morals doesn't mean we just shrug and say anything goes.
I’m not saying we should shrug and say anything goes. I’m saying all these companies share one commonality - the are building things for the US government. If you want to see change that is more than just superficial, that’s where you need to make it.
Sometimes it's easier to make the change by going after people whose actions implement the policy, rather than those who establish it.
Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system
#226Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'd rather we not help our own government "more effectively" spy on American citizens, thanks.
> Well, in the context of this post, that is irrelevant at best, or whataboutism at worst. I notice you don't offer a defense of Palantir here. Why is that? HN won't let me reply to that, so I'll do it here. I didn't feel the need to offer a "defense" of Palantir there since I already outlined it above and don't feel like there's value in repeating myself. But you asked, here you go - The government is going to use t…
> The only effective recourse is to make them collecting or storing the data illegal, but good luck with that, seeing as even when it is illegal they do it anyways (see: Snowden).
So, basically "screw rule of law, people are gonna do it anyway, so let's make money off it!"
Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system
#227Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is it a realistic expectation that we have no one working on smart bombs/weapons technology in general? I’d love to be in the utopia world where there is no war and the entire planet gets along. But even the US has political bipolar disorder, so we’re a looooong way from global peace. I do think we spend an absurd and inappropriate amount on defense, but as long as we are forced to develop weapons due to the global g…
I don't believe it is unethical to work on weapons technology any more than I believe it is unethical to be member of the armed forces. We live in a world with bad actors, so some amount of work on defense is necessary for survival. However, I also believe you are responsible for the consequences of the technology you create. If you decide to work on smart bombs and because of a bad government those end up killing in…
> However, I also believe you are responsible for the consequences of the technology you create.
I agree with this to an extent, but at the same time, technologies you develop can go well beyond what you intended them to be. Do you think Ritchie knew C would be used the way it is today? It is used in UAVs, smart missiles, and more. Building faster algorithms also means faster weapons. Everyone working at SpaceX is directly or indirectly working on missile technology. You can do this with practically any technology, even as simple as building a better screw. Building materials that are stronger, lighter, and cheaper reduce the prices of homes, but it also has applications in war. Studying diseases and vaccines directly impacts biological warfare research.
It is easy to say you're responsible when you're working on things like smart bombs. But it isn't easy if you're researching fertilizer. The thing that arguably has saved the most lives yet how many lives have bombs and bullets taken?
> Personally, I would rather avoid that by not working on that category of technology at all.
So what I'm saying is you're working on that tech, just how removed are you? I also don't think there's a cognitive dissonance. You can be pro putting nitrogen in soil and anti explosive nitrates. But saying the two aren't related is naive.
Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system
#228Yes. I believe them. Totally. The borg has my best interests at heart. My big brothers Apple and Google will look after me.
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Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system
#229Earlier quoted context omitted.
The analogy seems apt; weapons dealers don't give warlords armies (if they did, they'd be called mercenaries.) They give the armies of warlords the tools they need to be more effective. The violent acts, killing people or holding PII, are still performed by the warlord's organization, but does that excuse the people selling the tools used?
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I just don’t think that complaining about a tech company when what you actually dislike is what governments or other organizations are doing is going to impact anything. But Palantir has been the “tech boogieman” since before I even left in 2014, so it probably always will be. It is admittedly easier to blame a smaller tech company as a scapegoat than try to address the l…
The reason why Palantir is the "tech boogieman" is because it willingly and enthusiastically sells its tech to governments specifically for surveillance reasons, and even consults them as to how best integrate it all. And then we look at the politics of its owner, and it's explicitly anti-democratic - so it's not a coincidence.
And yes, of course, complaining about Palantir online isn't going to change the government policy. But if working for Palantir means that no other self-respecting software engineer will want to shake your hand, then fewer people will want to work there, and their surveillance tech will be lower quality and have more holes in it.
Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system
#230We've been looking at digital contact tracing from the perspective of Australia, as we see a huge push for the COVIDSafe app, based on Singapore's TraceTogether app.
It seems the sensible order of questions is:
1) Do we have a contact tracing problem?
2) Does digital contact tracing generally solve it?
3) Is the specific app / implementation useful / safe / privacy-respecting?
It appears the national conversation almost entirely skips thinking about 1) and 2) and gets lost in the limited analysis of 3).
We had a deeper look at 2) in this recent piece:
https://blog.crushthecurve.today/why-should-you-install-the-...