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Bye, Amazon

tbray.org

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Re: Bye, Amazon

#871

Post by MuffinFlavored »

specialp wrote: post #701
xenocyon wrote: post #688

My personal snapping point as a consumer occurred several years ago, over something that's definitely not anecdotal: When Amazon employees are frisked at the end of their shift (which is a practice that applies to at least some warehouses), they are not paid for the time they spend waiting in line to be frisked. This is not an anecdote; indeed Amazon fought and won a court case insisting that it has the right to not…

Yes for me too. The fact that Amazon is so cheap that they want employees to sit around for 20-30 minutes after their shift unpaid to get searched to make sure they aren't stealing blew me away. It is one thing if Amazon wants to do this and pay their employees, but to not pay is wrong. And they felt so strongly about this they appealed a case all the way to the Supreme Court... That was the snapping point for me too…

> The fact that Amazon is so cheap

you mean the company that pays high wages?

Re: Bye, Amazon

#872

Post by troyvit »

Nelson69 wrote: post #608
stupidcar wrote: post #20

> At the end of the day, it’s all about power balances. The warehouse workers are weak and getting weaker... Whenever I speak to someone working in a "low-skilled" job, I'm always astonished and embarrassed by how different their work environment sounds to the kind of offices I work in. There seems to be a consistent theme of employees being treated with suspicion, condescension and outright hostility. This gets to t…

A while back I helped a startup that was doing managed video services, specifically internal surveillance. A very logical "service" for them was to have actual humans review and verify various incidents and so they staffed up a small team of hourly video watchers. It was a culture shock. Things like acceptable workplace attire were issues; and there was no store-front or exposure to customers, it was just what's acce…

> It's hard to imagine what could spark a cultural shift that would unite workers in today's world.

It would have to be a huge cultural shift away from profits being the #1 goal of companies. We need something to replace it.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#873

Post by zwaps »

product50 wrote: post #755
pietrovismara wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just compare the incentives for both parts to be dishonest and you have your answer. What would workers gain from being dishonest except the risk of being fired or retaliated upon? And why, if organizers are lying, can't Amazon just disprove them by showing to the public their perfect working conditions? Finally, isn't it a natural instinct to side with the weaker element in a fight? Does Amazon really need your supp…

Stop ordering from Amazon if you really feel so strongly about this. No point making all this grand-stands while on the other hand, you will just goto Amazon for your needs. That is the real way to hurt them.

Many people do this, especially since ordering anything remotely non-trash on Amazon is a lottery nowadays.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#874

Post by krapp »

tempestn wrote: post #862
dang wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment was edited without saying so, which explains why some of the replies don't make sense. If you're going to make an edit that changes the meaning of what other people have already replied to, please say that you're doing that. The best way is to make the edit append-only.

How feasible would it be to actually enforce that in the code? Would be great if edits were append-only after some period of time. So you could correct a typo immediately after posting still, but after a few minutes you'd just be able to append. (Replying to your own comment doesn't serve the same function, since it could be lost under other replies.)

It would probably be better to just disallow editing to any comment with replies.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#875

Post by kbenson »

jariel wrote: post #522
esoterica wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one who runs a business that hires multiple employees can reasonably call themselves lower middle class. Showing my work: > My parents treated the workers well, paid them fairly[1] >His salary was lower than my mom’s. Not lower than the workers. Let X be a fair wage, Y be your dad's wage and Z be your mom's wage. Then Z>Y>X, so Z+Y>2X. Any household that makes more than twice a "fair wage" is not lower middle clas…

This is definitely not true. Literally drive down the street and look at those little no-name shops and stores: each of them have owners who employ other people. The lady who owns the salon and has 10 other ladies + receptionist working there is not wealthy, and is probably taking on a lot of risk. 'Small business owner' is one of the most precarious positions to be in - it's like all the low pay and crap of 'working…

> I don't know why people do it.

Because it's the most common and consistent gateway to actual wealth, which is also non-coincidentally the gateway to independence (at least from a singular boss, there's always some dependence on the system in some way).

This is slightly upended by startups and getting shares for signing on early, but that's really not all that different of a situation (partial ownership for partial risk), it just happens that at this particular point in history it's also applying towards people with a lot of prospects and/or resources so there's less on the line for them if it fails.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#876

Post by quotemstr »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #122

It's a wake up call, or at least an attempt at that, for the likes of Amazon that if they are looking to have reputable people, like Tim Bray, associate themselves and their name with you, there are certain standards that have to be met. Amazon, MS, Google, Apple, etc. rank among the most wealthy companies in the world and they've each had to deal with internal pressures where their employees voiced concerns about ce…

I don't think Amazon is going to have any trouble at all filling open headcount with talented people on account of maintaining a politics-free workplace.

It's become fashionable in tech among a certain crowd to bombard coworkers with divisive messaging about controversial social issues, to leak confidential information to sympathetic external press, and to demonize anyone who objects. This practice must end, and I admire Bezos for having the guts to end it. Companies have every right to ask employees to focus on work at work.

If being one of these "reputable people" you mention requires me to be a cheerleader for this kind of strident and obnoxious internal activism, I don't want to be "reputable".

Re: Bye, Amazon

#877

Post by chc »

smoe wrote: post #863
xenocyon wrote: post #688

My personal snapping point as a consumer occurred several years ago, over something that's definitely not anecdotal: When Amazon employees are frisked at the end of their shift (which is a practice that applies to at least some warehouses), they are not paid for the time they spend waiting in line to be frisked. This is not an anecdote; indeed Amazon fought and won a court case insisting that it has the right to not…

I always think it is a bit odd when a company wins a case like this, but then people blame the company, not the court or the law. Not saying, that you don't disagree with the courts decisions, but I keep getting this feeling especially from the US. Why do people realistically expect a company to not stretch things as far as legally possible? I get why libertarians would see it this way, but everyone else?

You seem to be conflating blameworthiness and predictability. True story: I know a guy who's a real scumbag, just constantly taking advantage of people who don't know better and abusing those who do know better. I fully expect this person to do a lot of contemptible things. My ability to anticipate his behavior doesn't make me like him any more for it. And the fact that the law doesn't punish a particular misbehavior doesn't shift the blame for his behavior onto the law.

In short: It is not ethical to do whatever you can get away with. You can choose to ignore questions of ethics, but if that's how you choose to live your life, expect to have a lot of people hate your guts. People treating you like a monster is a predictable consequence of living like a monster. This doesn't stop being true just because the choices are being made by multiple people under the banner of a corporation.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#878

Post by AlexCoventry »

smoe wrote: post #832
AlexCoventry wrote: post #794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> See https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-amazon-com/u-s-... . Where is the 2014 Supreme Court ruling mentioned by this article?

Seems to be this one: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/10/business/supreme-court-ru... https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/13-433_5h26.pdf

Thanks.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#879

Post by saagarjha »

ganoushoreilly wrote: post #788
xenocyon wrote: post #688

My personal snapping point as a consumer occurred several years ago, over something that's definitely not anecdotal: When Amazon employees are frisked at the end of their shift (which is a practice that applies to at least some warehouses), they are not paid for the time they spend waiting in line to be frisked. This is not an anecdote; indeed Amazon fought and won a court case insisting that it has the right to not…

To be fair, almost every single major retail establishment has this same policy. Many of which have also been fined. This is no where near unique to Amazon.

Apple did this too, until they lost a lawsuit: https://9to5mac.com/2020/02/13/apple-retail-bag-search-rulin.... Just because it's not unique doesn't mean Amazon shouldn't change their behavior.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#880

Post by uoaei »

Big props to Tim Bray. I think I speak for everyone when I say I'm not sure I would have been able to make the same step if I were in that position. Really impressed by the fortitude of his psyche and ethical framework. It doesn't sound like this decision was taken lightly.
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