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Bye, Amazon

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Re: Bye, Amazon

#781

Post by darksaints »

amai wrote: post #644
darksaints wrote: post #622

Just want to point out this: >Amazon Web Services (the “Cloud Computing” arm of the company), where I worked, is a different story. It treats its workers humanely, strives for work/life balance, struggles to move the diversity needle (and mostly fails, but so does everyone else), and is by and large an ethical organization. I genuinely admire its leadership. Having worked there, I 100% agree with this statement. I'd…

An article about this guy collected some interesting comments on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21818233

Wow, I have never seen this article. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the one who pushed for this article to be written.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#782

Post by AdrianB1 »

blueline wrote: post #691
raven105x wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure thing. How would you say the ability to wage free, self-fueled defamation campaigns (who bored people on the internet carry out for you) or things like false harassment / even worse (touchy topic, I do not say this lightly) false rape accusations are any different from the unilateral power to imprison (physically imprison, as in yes real jail ...maybe sans the torture) - just like you said? Better yet, in the go…

i'm going to leave all the minutiae of this response aside, because i don't want to get lost in the weeds. the REALLY important part that you're missing is that the gestapo were an _arm of the state_. some blue checkmarks on twitter cancelling people can _never_ compare to a literal secret police force run by the government. the scale of effect is just comically different. even if i suspend my disbelief that outrage…

If you make a comparison between 2 objects with different properties, different people will look at different subsets of the properties that makes them see similarities or not, other people will pick on the differences to negate the first. In this particular case one person is looking at specific similarities and the other is pointing out to the differences; it does not help.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#783

Post by ssklash »

BrandonM wrote: post #767
ssklash wrote: post #539

I'm shocked that so many bright, talented engineers go to work for Companies like Google and Amazon and Facebook. While I'm glad some see the light about the real mission of these companies (it's not about "connecting people", "providing delightful customer experiences", "doing no evil" or any of that BS) and ultimately quit, but what concerns me is how so many clearly incredibly bright and talented people are able t…

I think that's taking things a bit too far. Of course, the ultimate goal of every for-profit corporation is to make a profit. But along the way, most of them are providing value to society. So much of the Internet as we know it is built atop AWS. Many people are able to shelter in place with minimal impact largely because of the groundwork laid by Amazon, during more than a decade of not being profitable. That includ…

I agree that we should demand that companies should respect privacy. And if they did, Facebook and Google would cease to exist, or have never existed in the first place. They are surveillance capitalism, pure and simple. They may make Gmail free and make it seem like a photo sharing service exists to help grandparents connect with their kids, but those are simply hooks to lure people in for their data. They have all sorts of cool, free services to disguise the fact that they are looking for your data. No one denies the usefulness of Maps or search or FB messenger. But to pretend that Google and Facebook do it out of the goodness of their hearts or because they care about "connecting people" is naive and exactly what their messaging is intended to convey.

Amazon at least provides useful services. They do it on the backs of underpaid and poorly treated warehouse workers, but Prime shipping is sweet! Treatment of those interested in unionizing is about the biggest indicator of a company's values, and Amazon is quite clear on that point.

My main point overall is why work for a company like that when there are others doing the good things FAANG companies pretend to be providing?

Re: Bye, Amazon

#784

Post by ignoramous »

hourislate wrote: post #615

Completely anecdotal. It's possible some Amazon Warehouses are run better than others. A friend who recently got a job (5 weeks ago) at one of Amazons warehouses (NJ/NYC area) has only praise for the way things are run. They take his temperature 3 times a day, provide a mask, constantly monitor social distancing, clean washrooms every hour, enforce social distancing in any break rooms, work areas, etc. He says it's n…

Bray acknowledged that much.

> On the other hand, Amazon’s messaging has been urgent that they are prioritizing this issue and putting massive efforts into warehouse safety. I actually believe this: I have heard detailed descriptions from people I trust of the intense work and huge investments. Good for them; and let’s grant that you don’t turn a supertanker on a dime.

> But I believe the worker testimony too. And at the end of the day, the big problem isn’t the specifics of Covid-19 response. It’s that Amazon treats the humans in the warehouses as fungible units of pick-and-pack potential.

He concluded the piece with:

> ...it’s all about power balances. The warehouse workers are weak and getting weaker, what with mass unemployment and (in the US) job-linked health insurance. So they’re gonna get treated like crap, because capitalism. Any plausible solution has to start with increasing their collective strength.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#785

Post by Barrin92 »

hourislate wrote: post #615

Completely anecdotal. It's possible some Amazon Warehouses are run better than others. A friend who recently got a job (5 weeks ago) at one of Amazons warehouses (NJ/NYC area) has only praise for the way things are run. They take his temperature 3 times a day, provide a mask, constantly monitor social distancing, clean washrooms every hour, enforce social distancing in any break rooms, work areas, etc. He says it's n…

It speaks volumes that you think that actually deserves any sort of praise. Wow, they aren't running sweatshops in America? Hand them a fucking medal.

Tim Bray quit over the way Amazon treats labour organizers, not the fact that they protect the health of their workers during a pandemic.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#786

Post by cardiffspaceman »

ajhurliman wrote: post #620
stupidcar wrote: post #20

> At the end of the day, it’s all about power balances. The warehouse workers are weak and getting weaker... Whenever I speak to someone working in a "low-skilled" job, I'm always astonished and embarrassed by how different their work environment sounds to the kind of offices I work in. There seems to be a consistent theme of employees being treated with suspicion, condescension and outright hostility. This gets to t…

When I switched from mechanical engineering to software engineering people would ask me how the switch went, and I would tell them it was like I became a new class of citizen. The pay was better, I didn't get drug tested anymore, management was friendly, the rules were lax. This made a lot of people uncomfortable (software engineers didn't want to acknowledge the privilege they've been living with and non-software fo…

I've known of DBAs who had drug-testing.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#787

Post by pietrovismara »

product50 wrote: post #755
pietrovismara wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just compare the incentives for both parts to be dishonest and you have your answer. What would workers gain from being dishonest except the risk of being fired or retaliated upon? And why, if organizers are lying, can't Amazon just disprove them by showing to the public their perfect working conditions? Finally, isn't it a natural instinct to side with the weaker element in a fight? Does Amazon really need your supp…

Stop ordering from Amazon if you really feel so strongly about this. No point making all this grand-stands while on the other hand, you will just goto Amazon for your needs. That is the real way to hurt them.

True, but alone I can't make a difference. We must unite, in the workplace and as consumers. That's why it's as important to be vocal about it and convince other people to stop ordering from Amazon.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#788

Post by ganoushoreilly »

xenocyon wrote: post #688

My personal snapping point as a consumer occurred several years ago, over something that's definitely not anecdotal: When Amazon employees are frisked at the end of their shift (which is a practice that applies to at least some warehouses), they are not paid for the time they spend waiting in line to be frisked. This is not an anecdote; indeed Amazon fought and won a court case insisting that it has the right to not…

To be fair, almost every single major retail establishment has this same policy. Many of which have also been fined. This is no where near unique to Amazon.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#789

Post by fock »

tom_mellior wrote: post #216

> Fast-forward to the Covid-19 era. Stories surfaced of unrest in Amazon warehouses, workers raising alarms about being uninformed, unprotected, and frightened. Official statements claimed every possible safety precaution was being taken. Then a worker organizing for better safety conditions was fired, and brutally insensitive remarks appeared in leaked executive meeting notes where the focus was on defending Amazon…

I think the difference is that, while before personal health was only on the line on an individual basis, now it's on the line on a collective basis and AMZ apparently seems to not care for human life in general...

Re: Bye, Amazon

#790

Post by AdrianB1 »

cbsmith wrote: post #508
stupidcar wrote: post #20

> At the end of the day, it’s all about power balances. The warehouse workers are weak and getting weaker... Whenever I speak to someone working in a "low-skilled" job, I'm always astonished and embarrassed by how different their work environment sounds to the kind of offices I work in. There seems to be a consistent theme of employees being treated with suspicion, condescension and outright hostility. This gets to t…

There's also the reality that "low-skilled" really means "there's more supply of the skill than there is demand", or "depends purely on a skill that can be developed, as opposed to natural talent/advantage that few people have".

There is the reality that ~ 10% of the population has an IQ so low, US army cannot recruit them by law. 10% is a lot of people, a few tens of millions in US. I have someone in the family that has the mind of a children of 8-10 years old, for that person a "low skilled" job in an Amazon warehouse would be excellent; the alternative is zero income.
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