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Valve drops VR support for macOS

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Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Games helped to drive and define the Apple II and Macintosh successes Apple II, but Macintosh? I'm not sure I agree with that. I think a lot of Jobs' opinions about personal computers gelled in the 80's. Back then, with the various Sinclair machines, the Ataris, the C64, and the Amiga, there were a lot of people who said that games actually harmed those platforms. In North America at least, having a large library of…

> You're a serious business man wearing a serious business suit, running a serious business, and you need computers from a serious business computer company that can run serious business software! You need an IBM! To be fair, that mindset predates the use of personal computers to do serious graphics business. The Mac is largely responsible for making that mindset obsolete with things like desktop publishing and Photo…

> much more suited to gaming than DOS-era PCs.

Is that really true? I was alive during DOS-era gaming and still remember kids from Mac families standing out on the sidewalk in the rain crying like Oliver Twist weenies because they couldn’t get their game on. Meanwhile PC - read _intel_ - games we’re writing their own low-level memory managers to eek everything out of the platform possible. I was inside playing Ultima VII or playing Falcon 3.0 with a remote friend _over modem_ drinking hot chocolate. I think any review of the games catalogs would show that the market clearly judged the Mac as less well-suited for gaming.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the thrill quickly wore off. The kids quickly went back to playing their PS4 and Switch games, and never even mentioned the Quest after it was gone. Same experience (Vive Pro) with niece, nephew and their friends. They tried Beat Saber and all other age-appropriate VR games. After those few times, not once did they ask to try again. They would much rather play Fortnite and The Sims, with a mouse and keyboard.

That’s fascinating. I would totally be willing to accept that I’m on the other side of a generational divide over VR, and that I’m now too old to “get” new stuff like that. But with kids these days (heh) finding low replay value in VR, my thesis might be closer to the money than I thought.

Yeah, I had similar thoughts. One really interesting thing to me was that after a while, the kids would sit down to play Beat Saber. Instead of moving arms boldly as one would with real swords, it degenerated into hand/wrist twitches. Part of the fun for me of VR was getting a real workout, but a) I want that, and b) I mostly play video games in short bursts. It makes perfect sense that people who play longer want it to be nice and easy. And if you're already on the couch, the big TV and the regular controllers are just fine.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#233
post #179
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also possible to outright buy Mac Pro Rack, a $6500 full depth 4U server, that is 1CPU all the way up, that offer neither any redundancy nor any remote management, if that kind of trash matters at all.

The lack of dual power supplies and remote power on/off and good PXE support is crazy for a rack mount computer (won’t even dignify it by calling it a server).

The rack mounted Mac Pro isn’t targeted at the server market, it’s targeted at creative industries (i.e, film/tv production, audio recording, etc) where you’d have it rackmounted into a flight case as part of a mobile post-production unit.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#234
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been owning a VR headset (a htc vive) for more than a year, now, and I concur with other comments : it's something else, and I think the only reason it's not taking over is the high price tag for a setup. That being said, I use my VR headset probably even less than my 3d printer. As mindblowing as it is when I put the headset on (and truly, it never gets old), I realized it's just not for me. I usually play game…

I think VR is for everyone, like any medium, it's just that you haven't found a game/app that makes you come back. For me it's the multiplayer games that I like, more of my friends are getting VR headsets right now and I suspect that as more of them get into it the more we'll end up playing VR together.

Not every medium is for everyone; human preferences don’t work that way.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#235
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand what it means. There's an option in CS and it doesn't seem to actually do anything on Mac OS. Its one of the most popular games ever created and unlike many AAA devs Valve is still actually really good at what they do. If they can't get it right on a Mac it doesn't inspire much confidence that its an acceptable gaming platform. Can you name an online FPS with a decent sized community with proper raw inpu…

GeForce NOW seemed to handle raw input correctly when I tested it on macOS. Though that's more of a game streaming thing. Regarding Apple's mice, the Magic Mouse has a rather unusual polling rate of 90 Hz (likely to save energy), which probably explains why it feels awful to use.

Magic mice are also dicey ergonomically, imho. Best to avoid in general.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#236
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been owning a VR headset (a htc vive) for more than a year, now, and I concur with other comments : it's something else, and I think the only reason it's not taking over is the high price tag for a setup. That being said, I use my VR headset probably even less than my 3d printer. As mindblowing as it is when I put the headset on (and truly, it never gets old), I realized it's just not for me. I usually play game…

I think VR is for everyone, like any medium, it's just that you haven't found a game/app that makes you come back. For me it's the multiplayer games that I like, more of my friends are getting VR headsets right now and I suspect that as more of them get into it the more we'll end up playing VR together.

Oh no, don't get me wrong, I'm totally mind blown by what I've seen. No Man's Sky and Skyrim VR most notably were just game changing compared to what I experienced in flat screens.

But yeah, VR requires my full and undivided attention, and this will just not happen :)

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#237
post #90
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible to mount the trashcan mac pros with unofficial mounts, its just awkward and definitely not intended [0]. You can also mount iMac Pros [1]. [0] https://twitter.com/brianstucki/status/800778773998145536 [1] https://www.macstadium.com/imacpro

It's also possible to outright buy Mac Pro Rack, a $6500 full depth 4U server, that is 1CPU all the way up, that offer neither any redundancy nor any remote management, if that kind of trash matters at all.

That's a fat machine

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#238
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compared to IBM computers, they are overpriced. Of course, if you want to test your software on Macs, you'll have to buy their hardware sooner or later, but even then you have to set up the build on the system instead of keeping it as pure test system. If you do it for your day job, it's probably justified, but if you are just a hobbyist, then even hundreds of dollars are expensive. Especially if you live in a poorer…

IBM computers!? Have not heard for quite awhile. Thought they quit the PC world to Lenovo for quite sometimes la.

The word PC existed long before IBM called one specific model "IBM PC" and since that specific model is no longer in widespread use it makes no sense to refer to regular non mac computers as IBM computers.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#239
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side, I have and maintain a Windows computer for the sole purpose of gaming. I hate it to the point where I can’t understand why anyone would voluntarily subject themselves to Windows other than sheer ignorance. You can’t swap sound outputs while an application is running. Fullscreen Direct3D games can freeze in a way that obscures all other windows, including the Task Manager , preventing you from ever k…

I’d be a little more circumspect before accusing others of ignorance and then going on a tirade of declarative statements about an OS you’re obviously not invested in enough to solve the problems you’re experiencing.

I’m not using “ignorant” as a pejorative here. I literally mean this in the sense of not realizing that other systems exist and are dramatically less awful. I too used to be ignorant here, until I started using Linux extensively before eventually switching to a Mac.

And yes, I understand that there are people who are forced to use Windows professionally or for gaming (like myself), there are people who use Windows because they don’t like (or want to pay for) Mac hardware, and I understand that there are even people who aren’t ignorant about other operating systems who prefer Windows. On the whole though I conclude that the overwhelming majority of users who could use a Mac and don’t simply do so out of a combination of unawareness and/or inertia.

To your second point, literally none of my complaints are something I could have any possible level of control over, no matter my level of personal investment. Windows’ nested layers of awfulness driven by slavish adherence to backward compatibility are quite literally something I could never visibly impact even if I dedicated my life to doing so. The fact that Mac apps, by and large, try to be “good citizens” of the platform while Windows is a free-for-all of developers doing anything and everything however they see fit is in a similar boat.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#240
post #227
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Games that do a good job of keeping the arcade format are a lot more immersive. Fact is, VR today can only put you in a single room. So the entire game needs to be build around that constraint to maintain immersion. Space Pirate Trainer is another game that did a really good job of this. Before Beat Saber, that was easily my favorite, though wow Beat Saber is _so good_. Blarp is another game that did a great job of i…

> So the entire game needs to be build around that constraint to maintain immersion I haven't tried the new Half Life, so I'm wondering if you're right.

HL:A definitely does more with something resembling an adventure formula akin to the traditional HL games, versus most other VR titles. Per my original comment; I think I have to consider it as experimenting, and it's only partially successful.

(low-level spoilers)

There's one moment early on where you're asked to solve a vorgon puzzle in a drainage ditch. Every person I've asked who has been through this area disliked it, and I haven't found anyone who solved it legitimately. Its confusing. It has parallax/perspective elements which ask you to move around a large area, position yourself perfectly, and possibly even crane your neck in the right way to get an angle on what is the intended solution.

But, movement sucks in any non-room-style VR game. You can't use the joystick to just move your character, like you would in a non-VR game, because it causes unreal motion sickness in, like, 100% of users (this is available as option. its an experience that i think everyone should try; I had no idea I could get motion sickness until I did, but I was literally falling over). Instead, you press the joystick in the direction you want, a targeting beam pops up, and you "teleport" to the desired location. This sucks. Its imprecise, its slow, and it makes you feel, to some degree, like you're actually watching a powerpoint presentation of the game.

And, head yaw can also suck in VR. This may be surprising; its the entire point of VR. But, depending on whether your headset has a tether, and how big your play area is, many VR players are stuck stationary and with, maybe, 180 degrees of freedom in front of them. In one of these setups, you cant naturally look behind you; you have to rotate in-game, which calls back to all of the negatives that movement itself has. But even the in-game rotation is in-precise; in HL:A, it jumps by roughly 60 degree increments. Imagine there's something 45 degrees to your left you want to center; you can either turn your head 45 degrees left to center it (uncomfortable), rotate your body 45 degrees left (scary), or rotate in-game 60 degrees left, followed by rotating your head 15 degrees right or body 15 degrees right. In small play areas, the body rotations are a slippery slope that eventually ends in you being turned around, contacting furniture, or getting tangled in the headset tether. This is, at least for me, always front of mind; I can't escape the reality that my play area isn't large. So, you end up with these nearly (only nearly) subconscious calculations involving how many times you need to rotate in-game to make neck rotations less uncomfortable.

This is the problem space that any non-room VR game has, and will have, to solve. It is unsolved. I believe it is unsolvable. Even if you can get the player/object interactions down to perfection (this is insanely difficult, and different for every game; HL:A is the first "complex" VR game I've seen get close), even if you can craft a story and world that is both compelling, and works well with the intrinsic movement limitations VR has (no one has done this yet; again, HL:A gets close), even if you can remove slideshow-teleportation movement without motion sickness (I believe this is impossible without something like an omni-directional treadmill); you still run up against most players just not having the space for room-scale VR & N-degree freedom of movement.

VR is filled with technical challenges, and every technical challenge developers have to solve limits their ability to be artists. This is why arcade-style games are the showcase piece for VR. And, in my opinion, will remain that way for a good, long while.

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