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Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

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Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#671

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

jefftk wrote: post #440
gwd wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? If it's a bad bet for the bank , it must be far worse of a bet for young adults. That's the point -- right now we're essentially suckering millions of naive young adults into a life of wage slavery by giving them a "bet" which they are completely unequipped to evaluate; and many of t…

> If it's a bad bet for the bank, it must be far worse of a bet for young adults. That doesn't follow: you could graduate, get your degree, and declare bankruptcy. You're fine, your loan is gone, and the bank regrets their investment.

Was that what we saw happening before such loans were made non-dischargeable?

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#672

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

lordnacho wrote: post #556
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'd be better off hiring people with engineering degrees (non-software). That's applied critical thinking and creative problem solving all in one. I really don't know why there's this insistence that humanities has a monopoly on teaching critical thinking.

What's wrong with software engineers? Surely there's a fair bit of critical thinking involved there, too?

I meant that if employers were looking for people who were adept at critical thinking and software developers didn't fit the bill (the original posters implication) that there was a category of people who would be even more adept at it than philosophers. Sorry if I was unclear.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#673

Post by chillacy »

twomoretime wrote: post #105
mywittyname wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to pick an economically viable major. There are lots of difficult fields to study that just don't pay well due to competition. People tend to think Science = STEM = Guaranteed Job, but that is not the case. Lots of sciences don't make much money, especially the ones driven by passion. Others are highly geographically dependent, so mining engineers might have a median salary of $80k after five years, but 80%…

>There are lots of difficult fields to study that just don't pay well due to competition That may be the case, but speaking as a recent young person, the vast majority of college students I met did no actual research regarding the employability of their majors. It's also a disservice to group soft and hard sciences together under STEM - because you end up with millions of children who can't hack it in math, but they…

Just to put numbers on that, nothing pays off quite like science and engineering: https://studentloanhero.com/featured/majors-students-debt/

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#674

Post by chrisco255 »

wolco wrote: post #616
chrisco255 wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my mind the problem is the system itself was designed for a world that doesn't exist. When the supply of college degrees was low 50 years ago, sure, it paid to have a degree. But now that it has become commoditized, it's not that valuable. There's no supply / demand pricing mechanism to influence a student's major. The cost of tuition is mainly based on an arbitrary credit hour. No matter how worthless a course is…

Why would having someone who knows the law and drives a taxi make it a waste of resources? Taxi drivers should be uneducated in your view. Why? How does that help society? Many lawyers need to drive taxis to get by. Being a lawyer doesn't mean instant riches unless you land at a high profile firm directly out of school. Studying law isn't a finite resource either.

"I never let schooling get in the way of my education."

The problem with your view is you assume the only way to get educated is via academia. There is a lot of education when you become a mechanic, an electrician, a factory worker, a firefighter, etc. That is not academic. You learn on the job. There are also many certification courses for these fields that run outside of traditional college system.

I believe in free schooling to teach basic, essential skills like reading, computing, math, etc. I'd even argue for a greater emphasis on financial education in K-12. But college is different.

The college system is very expensive, it's heavily subsidized by the state even in the U.S. If it is not teaching people valuable skills that they will be using in their profession, then it is not serving it's purpose. It costs people resources in the form of taxes.

In the meantime, we live in the information age. Teaching people to teach themselves is probably the most valuable skill we can teach.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#675

Post by pmorici »

dyadic wrote: post #439
pmorici wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not 'free' it's paid for through taxes.

It is free to the person that receives it. Imagine I bake and give you a cake, it's still a "free cake" even though I've put the work into baking it and other people have put the work into harvesting the ingredients and bringing them to me.

No it isn't, presumably that person will graduate and go on to have a career where they are paid a salary and pay taxes on that salary. How is paying higher taxes for one's entire working life different than making payments on a loan with lower taxes?

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#676

Post by tomohawk »

Colleges have been peddling shoddy goods to unsophisticated buyers for years with little or no regulation or oversight.

In fact, the government has propped them up with federal money, loan guarantees, and a feeder school system that conditions their potential customers and funnels them in the doors.

The shoddy goods are degrees that are highly unlikely to be worth what was paid for.

You can't get more unsophisticated than an 18 year old who's been fed a dream about how their life will be awesome if they get into the school of their choice.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#677

Post by eulers_secret »

hnburnsy wrote: post #131
mywittyname wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to pick an economically viable major. There are lots of difficult fields to study that just don't pay well due to competition. People tend to think Science = STEM = Guaranteed Job, but that is not the case. Lots of sciences don't make much money, especially the ones driven by passion. Others are highly geographically dependent, so mining engineers might have a median salary of $80k after five years, but 80%…

One way in the US to help pick an economically viable major is to use the BLS Occupational Outlook... https://www.bls.gov/ooh/mobile/home.htm It gives estimates of salary and future demand for pretty much all occupations. Recommend this to your children to help them understand how their major selection could impact their future career.

This is fun to look at!

Computer and Information Technology Occupations:

Computer Programmers: $86,550

Software Developers: $107,510

Web Developers: $73,760

I think the difference in pay is because they state Web Dev requires an associates degree, the other two a bachelor's.

Of course, this data is generalized. I am an SWE, with an associates. I make a little more than their "Software Developer" role. Also suggests there may be a lot of devs who don't respond to salary threads.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#678

Post by brianwawok »

leetcrew wrote: post #643
brianwawok wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

7ish year delay in buying a house. Which may be better than 20 years of payments to debt.

even graduating with no debt and a good job, I doubt most people are looking to buy a house within seven years anyway.

In the sciences out of SF and NYC? It’s very easy.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#679

Post by WalterBright »

wolfgke wrote: post #665
WalterBright wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a bankruptcy on your record may make it difficult to get that high-paying job, as employers may not look favorably upon it.

> Having a bankruptcy on your record may make it difficult to get that high-paying job, as employers may not look favorably upon it. Why? I rather consider this as a sign that the person will be rather loyal as employee because he needs the money ...

Making a deal and then breaking it can dissuade employers from putting a person in a high trust position. Most business operates on trust, handshakes, and one's word. Contracts are a backup.

Trust is like glass - easy to break, very hard to put back together.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#680

Post by ycombi3 »

non-entity wrote: post #341
ycombi3 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but how could someone not have agreed with your statement? Online learning is a major threat to college for many of those reasons.

Online learning isn't a very big threat to colleges because colleges hold a sort of "social monopoly" on credentialling for majority of fields. No one will care about you coursera certificates they want a bachelors degree.

True. But I still think this is changing for the better, just very slowly.
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