Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education • Hacker News Board

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#131

Post by hnburnsy » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:46 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #93

nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

It's hard to pick an economically viable major. There are lots of difficult fields to study that just don't pay well due to competition. People tend to think Science = STEM = Guaranteed Job, but that is not the case. Lots of sciences don't make much money, especially the ones driven by passion. Others are highly geographically dependent, so mining engineers might have a median salary of $80k after five years, but 80%…

One way in the US to help pick an economically viable major is to use the BLS Occupational Outlook...

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/mobile/home.htm

It gives estimates of salary and future demand for pretty much all occupations. Recommend this to your children to help them understand how their major selection could impact their future career.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#132

Post by amiga_500 » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:47 PM UTC

Frost1x wrote: post #100

HarryHirsch wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

our bartender Javon had a masters in biology That's de-risking, de-skilling and outsourcing. Back then, in the last century, the US and Europe had a functioning chemical industry. Unfortunately, information technology took off, and investment banking discovered that returns are better with Facebook than in Pharma, consequently that's where the jobs are now. Also, mergers & acquisitions took off in the same time. Why…

You don't have to create and improve in a world you have little to no competition with high barrier to entry established. You can keep repackaging the same things without risk and work on perceptive value of people. Why innovate and create when I can live like a king just playing our economic, governmental, and social systems like a fiddle? We're not quite that bad yet but we're already headed down the path in that d…

I know you aren't promoting it, but to answer your question:

> Why innovate and create when I can live like a king just playing our economic, governmental, and social systems like a fiddle?

Because the entire country is going to implode.

2008: financial crisis

2016: political crisis

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#133

Post by ge96 » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:47 PM UTC

gwd wrote: post #113

nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

Personally still owing some debt(that was pretty much wasted since I didn't finish school, my own fault) debt was handed out easily/same with credit cards. I think it's a great opportunity if you use it right(follow through in my case). I didn't understand money though at that time, wasted it/killed my credit score. I was lucky though I have federal loans and they do a pay as you earn type plan where you can pay nothing if you don't make enough granted it still builds interest. Overall my debts aren't bad since I had some grants/went into engineering/physics not a doctor or lawyer. I at least made it into software so if my life continues to pan out I will get out of debt within two years at best.

But yeah, at that time though(in school) I was really scared because I was not doing well in school and I was like "how will I pay this back"...

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#134

Post by syedkarim » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:47 PM UTC

twomoretime wrote: post #105

mywittyname wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to pick an economically viable major. There are lots of difficult fields to study that just don't pay well due to competition. People tend to think Science = STEM = Guaranteed Job, but that is not the case. Lots of sciences don't make much money, especially the ones driven by passion. Others are highly geographically dependent, so mining engineers might have a median salary of $80k after five years, but 80%…

>There are lots of difficult fields to study that just don't pay well due to competition That may be the case, but speaking as a recent young person, the vast majority of college students I met did no actual research regarding the employability of their majors. It's also a disservice to group soft and hard sciences together under STEM - because you end up with millions of children who can't hack it in math, but they…

Why is this being downvoted? Strange.

I graduated in 2007 and your observation is the same as mine. Students go to school without really thinking about what is next. I'm guessing that is a result of a middle/upper middle class upbringing. I noticed international students were a lot more driven, on average. I went to a small, liberal arts college that was not highly selective in admissions.

Even with the talented and studious, very few had any real idea of what was next. Why do we encourage so much debt just for the supposed sake of edification.

I will say, though, that it was a really fun time in my life. So maybe that's worth it?

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#135

Post by jcranmer » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #117

nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

Thanks for your story. I had a similar moment after college myself. I graduated into the recession of the early 90s, in San Diego, which had been hit very hard by defense cutbacks. Almost everyone I knew worked service jobs, and even those were hard to get at times. The only people getting decent jobs - by which, I mean jobs that build careers, I'm not talking about pay - were engineers and a few finance/accounting r…

> My suspicion is that there is a huge difference between graduating as a humanities major in a recession vs boom.

Drop the "humanities major"--it's true even for STEM majors as well. There's a pretty consistent career track from college to junior to senior positions, and if you fall off that track, it is quite hard to get back in again. There are very few majors for which demand is high enough to let you get back on the track, certainly not all of STEM.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#136

Post by basch » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #115

basch wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not saying the lecture itself is expensive. I am saying the artificial scarcity of everything around higher education keeps people from receiving a certified education that is recognized by the employment marketplace, when at least for undergrad classes, the lecture and the textbook is largely what you need to receive a functioning education.

I think the number of people graduating with a collage degree significantly outstrips the demand for collage degrees. Otherwise you would not see people with collage degrees working retail etc.

That's what I meant by my line "just because you pay the membership fee, doesnt mean you actually make the club."

College is selling you the promise of an opportunity to join the club. You pay an application fee, and then you may or may not get into the club. If you don't get in, they keep your application fee, and you have student loans and a degree but no viable networking.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#137

Post by beams_of_light » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

GnarfGnarf wrote: post #87

beams_of_light wrote: post #46

I'm using Blendle, but can't find this story there.

As I understand Blendle, they only offer some stories from their list of publishers. NYT, WSJ, WaPo, LA Times, etc. will pick & choose what they allow Blendle to offer. Top-tier stories will not be shared through Blendle, and will be reserved for direct subscribers. It makes Blendle less attractive to me.

That's too bad. Guess this is almost useless to me.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#138

Post by ex_amazon_sde » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:53 PM UTC

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #71

bambataa wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood why students would even want the college to be so involved in their student life. Allocate some buildings to the student body, get them to organise themselves and throw a bit of a cash at them. I think that's a good balance. I studied at a university with quite a focus on "college life" and it was nice to feel part of something but we didn't need to organise our social lives.

> I've never understood why students would even want the college to be so involved in their student life. If I understand the American system, there is pressure from parents as well. The students might not want the college to be so involved in their student life, but many parents would be unwilling to allow their children to attend an institution that is not highly focused on keeping them safe, to the point of treati…

> highly focused on keeping them safe

This is not the point of the parent post. Extravagant expenditures on dining halls do little for safety. Competitive sports are a net negative for safety.

A large number of european (as well as japanese) cities are very safe. Also, university students are adults.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#139

Post by amiga_500 » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:53 PM UTC

xhkkffbf wrote: post #2

I wish I could be more sympathetic to the college industrial complex, but they've been treat us poorly for years. Yes, I know it's our fault for demanding gold plated educational experiences and then going into crazy debt to finance it. But who wants to blame himself/herself? The job can be done better for much less. Indeed, it used to be much cheaper in the past when the dorms weren't so fancy and there were a bazil…

No, it's led by the other end.

Funding is created for college places. Enough to "educate" 30% of people. People start to go.

Employers for very basic jobs notice that 50% of applicants have degrees. They stipulate on their next job advertisement "degree required".

The bar has been raised. You now cannot get an interview without a degree in many jobs.

You have to get a degree. The financiers start to loan more and more for this now essential ticket.

Universities start charging more. Student's entire working lives are financialised, as the debt will take a lifetime to repay.

University is not set by the cost to deliver, it's set by the available credit.

Same for housing.

But hey keep on focusing on your "right to free speech" that every single other nation has but without a brutal police force that Europeans look upon with horror.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#140

Post by ilamont » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:54 PM UTC

brewdad wrote: post #10

My kid will be making his college choice in the coming year. As such, he's getting mail from colleges pretty much every day. The mailer from Vanderbilt really struck me as to the wrongheaded thinking of university leaders. On one side was this amazing blurb: "Vanderbilt financial aid packages DO NOT INCLUDE LOANS. IT'S FREE MONEY....65% of Vanderbilt students received some type of FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE" Tell me why co…

We just went through this. The finalist schools -- a big midwest Catholic school and a large NE state university -- offered scholarships or grants between $16k and $21k per year with some caveats such as min 2.0 GPA at one and FAFSA qualifications staying roughly the same over the four year period.

These scholarships/grants brought the per-year cost close to the University of Ottawa international rates, about $41k/year all in. If my senior had been accepted to UMass Amherst, our in-state university, the all-in cost would start at $33k/year (without FAFSA consideration).

The brand-name private colleges around the Northeast US now have all-in sticker prices of $75k-80k. Financial aid in the form of grants or scholarships (not loans) would have to be $35k-40k to make these schools competitive on a cost basis with the examples given above.