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Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

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Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#41

College isn't as appealing as it once was. In order to participate in the economy, we need a well-paying job. We're told to get a well-paying job, we need a good degree. To get a good degree, many of us have to go into debt. We finish college with a good degree but are saddled with thousands of dollars of debt (sometimes tens of thousands). And this college debt doesn't go away if we go bankrupt. It will always follo…

You are still way better off with college than without. It’s not as good a deal as it used to be but it’s still the best deal available.

I think it depends on what you're doing. If you want to be an artist or a writer, maybe community college would be a better deal.

On the other hand, if you want to be an engineer then it's pretty important to go to a reputable institution - at least in the field I work in.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#42
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me how 15K+ in tuition a year is acceptable. No sympathy here for the college industry.

There’s a bit of a rat race in colleges posturing to get ahead of each other always, and that takes capital investment and the recourse to raise funds ends up being tuition. These things and reputations take years and tons of willpower and planning, so the risk of falling behind is immense.

If only we were somehow able to remove the ability to peacock and ensure everyone going through the system got a good education.... then rich people and employers would have much less to work with in terms of picking candidates based on school "reputation".

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#43
post #25

I think it's time to decouple education from all of the other things tied to colleges. When I studied abroad in Australia, things like the gym or meal plans were available, but not "bundled in" to your tuition. The idea of tying competitive sports teams to a university would be laughable. We need to remove all of the "excess" stuff from higher education and get back to the core of education and research. Sure, things…

This is essential. The state university my partner attended and worked at became, over the years, more similar to a theme park or all-inclusive resort than an educational institution. They were involved in everything from student banking, fast-food franchises, high-end gyms, suites instead of dorms, and on it went. Not saying these things have no place, just that it shouldn't be part of the university.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#44
post #13
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gotta pay for those basketball and football programs somehow. (Yes, SOME athletics programs are net positive - most are not)

I didn't realize that. Do you have a source for this, please?

It depends on the school which means maybe some schools should not have sports teams? How crazy is it to think that a school should be focused on education and not go into debt to finance extracurriculars.

Big brand name schools that are regularly competing at top level in sports are usually seeing huge financial surplus due to sports.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#45
There’s this fairly well known idea in organizations that expenses will tend to rise to fill the available budget. It’s not nefarious, just the natural result of a competitive market - both the market inside the organization, where people want to spend any money that is allocated to them (because why not?), and the market outside the organization, where spending (on fancy dorms, maternity wards, or rock climbing inside the office) is an arms race to attract “the best” students, patients, or tech workers (just to name a few examples).

Again there’s nothing inherently wrong with this. In tech, especially in the Bay Area, it means a lot of us get to live pretty nice lives as our employers have to invest a lot more of their budgets in attracting and retaining a skilled work force.

The problem is when this sort of thing is fueled by subsidies and/or opaque mechanisms. Google can afford to lavish it’s workforce from its own profits, but the average startup these days is burning heaps of investor money on “perks” to compete for talent that aren’t truly necessary.

But that’s private money, and if/when those companies fail, society at large isn’t threatened.

When this same phenomenon happens in public institutions like Universities and Hospitals, where the money is coming from individuals who need these services to thrive, the damage is much greater. In the long run, public subsidy for student loans doesn’t make college available to the masses, so much as it balloons the cost and saddles students with debts. In the long run, the US’ Byzantine “insurance” system for health payments doesn’t spread the cost around so much as it inflates and distorts the costs and changes insurance from a “nice to have” to an increasingly expensive barrier to entry.

The global pandemic didn’t create the problems these institutions have, it’s just exposing them and accelerating the inevitable failure of the unsustainable. It’s going to leave a lot of damage in its wake.

Pessimistically, I expect these institutions to go beg for money from the printer and try to sustain the unsustainable. But my optimistic side sees this as an opportunity for all of us to question the systems around us, and try to fix some of the underlying root causes that made these systems so fragile in the first place.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#47

I was often told stories from the Boomer generation of people "working their way through college", holding part time jobs through college to pay for both living expenses and tuition. That is, quite literally, impossible today.

That's ok, they'll still talk trash about how millennials and younger generations have no work ethic. They were born on third base and think they hit a triple.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#48

College isn't as appealing as it once was. In order to participate in the economy, we need a well-paying job. We're told to get a well-paying job, we need a good degree. To get a good degree, many of us have to go into debt. We finish college with a good degree but are saddled with thousands of dollars of debt (sometimes tens of thousands). And this college debt doesn't go away if we go bankrupt. It will always follo…

I think in state tuition at a public university is often still a very good deal w/o nearly the debt profile.

in states with good public universities, the best value is 2 years at a good community college, then 2 years at the state school. even 2 years at a good state university is getting ridiculously expensive ($60K+).

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#49
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is the loans. I have a funny feeling if loans were capped at say, 10k/year, colleges might all the sudden charge 11k/year to attend instead of 30k...

One of the oddities in the college process is how public universities followed the price increases of their private counterparts. Why weren't state governments able to dictate effective cost controls to keep costs down for residents? Note that I'm aware of in-state tuition. The main campus of my state university charges 30k/year instate, and 40k/year out of state. Neither number is appropriate in a state with a media…

Are you asking why state governments choose to collect easy money from voluntary taxes funded by Federal government backed loans?

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#50
post #2

I wish I could be more sympathetic to the college industrial complex, but they've been treat us poorly for years. Yes, I know it's our fault for demanding gold plated educational experiences and then going into crazy debt to finance it. But who wants to blame himself/herself? The job can be done better for much less. Indeed, it used to be much cheaper in the past when the dorms weren't so fancy and there were a bazil…

>> The adjunct professors get paid next to nothing. Let's give them a slight raise, fire 90% of the deans This is where the education industry can learn from the law schools. They are certainly ivory towers, but part of that tradition is that law school deans still ussually teach. My first year contracts prof was also the school dean. Law school deans remain largely 'first among many' rather than a separate professio…

> part of that tradition is that law school deans still ussually teach

At my Uni, the administrators taught bullshit courses on personal development et cetera.

Law schools have a unique culture. Teaching requirements are a product of their "first among equals" attitude, not a cause. Porting the mechanism without the culture is unlikely to solve the problem.

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