Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education • Hacker News Board

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#611

Post by mettamage » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 9:48 PM UTC

hnburnsy wrote: post #131

mywittyname wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to pick an economically viable major. There are lots of difficult fields to study that just don't pay well due to competition. People tend to think Science = STEM = Guaranteed Job, but that is not the case. Lots of sciences don't make much money, especially the ones driven by passion. Others are highly geographically dependent, so mining engineers might have a median salary of $80k after five years, but 80%…

One way in the US to help pick an economically viable major is to use the BLS Occupational Outlook... https://www.bls.gov/ooh/mobile/home.htm It gives estimates of salary and future demand for pretty much all occupations. Recommend this to your children to help them understand how their major selection could impact their future career.

Even as a non-American, this is fascinating. I wonder if other countries have it.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

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Post by spaced-out » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 9:49 PM UTC

chongli wrote: post #507

spaced-out wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying small schools would choose to close rather than lower their prices and stay open?

It’s not really a choice. Those schools tend to have very expensive, high maintenance campuses. I suppose they could also let all the buildings deteriorate but then they risk being closed against their well due to safety concerns. In truth, the costs of these schools results from a ratchet effect. Wealthy donors buy the fancy buildings which the schools are then stuck maintaining. It’s a classic case of a white eleph…

It's not uncommon for organizations to have to downsize due to changing economic conditions.

In fact, when people ask why colleges are paying administrators 6-7 figure salaries while classes are taught by lecturers making a fraction of that, they say they need to compete with private industry for top talent. I would hope that an administrator making $300,000+ can come up with a more creative plan for what to do with high maintenance buildings than just "let them deteriorate".

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

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Post by vonmoltke » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #285

michaelt wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me how 15K+ in tuition a year is acceptable. I believe people who support such things think as follows: 1. $15k a year tuition for 4 years is a great deal if it turns you into a banker or programmer with a $150,000 a year salary and a 40-year career. Indeed, it would be unjust for a garbage man's taxes to be paying for a stockbroker's education. 2. Majoring in poetry migh…

It's not unjust if that garbageman went to university too, or at least had the same opportunity. Society is better off with better educated citizens. It's why we have free public schooling up through the age of 18; many other countries simply carry that farther. On the poetry point specifically, I really think writing degrees in general would be more successful if they were granted by trade schools (i.e. a focus on d…

> It's why we have free public schooling up through the age of 18; many other countries simply carry that farther.

To be fair, we also have compulsory schooling for that period as well, and it makes complete sense to use tax revenue to pay for something the same government is making you do.

Note that I don't oppose the use of tax revenue to fund voluntary education, and I personally benefited heavily from it. Its just that using the example of the government paying for something it made mandatory is not much of an argument in itself for having it pay for something that is voluntary.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

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Post by btilly » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

labcomputer wrote: post #578

btilly wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The loans that were protected from bankruptcy from 1978 to 2005 were student loans to the federal government. They weren't private loans to banks. Therefore before 2005, banks that lent money for student loans did so without that particular extraordinary protection.

> Therefore before 2005, banks that lent money for student loans did so without that particular extraordinary protection. Most of the pre-2005 loans required a parental co-signer. And I know that I wasn't able to take out non-federal loans all by myself.

Yours is a true statement that doesn't contradict what I said. Namely that until 2005, banks were lending to students without protection from non-payment during bankruptcy.

In fact the fact that banks insisted on mitigating their risks with a co-signer is actually supporting evidence FOR what I said.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#615

Post by voqv » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 9:52 PM UTC

foepys wrote: post #355

evolve2k wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany for example offers free education for Americans/foreigners. I remember this was discussed a while back on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9308261

Some states already require foreign students to pay 500€ each semester and others will follow. On top of that you will have to guarantee that you can support your life in Germany, meaning you are not eligible for any kind of government support if things get tough or you lose your job. Going there thinking everything will be provided is wrong and the COVID-19 crisis will get a lot of foreign students into deep trouble…

Only one state (BW) requires payment with no clear indication that others will follow.

> you will have to guarantee that you can support your life in Germany What's so special about that?

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#616

Post by wolco » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 9:52 PM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #518

jedberg wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, I don't think college should be paid for with loans. I agree with you that we shouldn't be enslaving people. But I also don't think allowing these loans to be discharged in bankruptcy will solve anything (and will arguably make things worse) without systemic changes in the way college is paid for.

In my mind the problem is the system itself was designed for a world that doesn't exist. When the supply of college degrees was low 50 years ago, sure, it paid to have a degree. But now that it has become commoditized, it's not that valuable. There's no supply / demand pricing mechanism to influence a student's major. The cost of tuition is mainly based on an arbitrary credit hour. No matter how worthless a course is…

Why would having someone who knows the law and drives a taxi make it a waste of resources? Taxi drivers should be uneducated in your view. Why? How does that help society?

Many lawyers need to drive taxis to get by. Being a lawyer doesn't mean instant riches unless you land at a high profile firm directly out of school.

Studying law isn't a finite resource either.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

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Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 9:52 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #405

jedberg wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? They only guarantee they get that it will be paid back is the fact that it can't be discharged. Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be disc…

The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? They only guarantee they get that it will be paid back is the fact that it can't be discharged. And yet somehow banks were happy to do so until 2005. Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be discharged at bankruptcy. That being said, I actually think that's a good thing, b…

[deleted]

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#618

Post by dhimes » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 9:53 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #179

gwd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? They only guarantee they get that it will be paid back is the fact that it can't be discharged. Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be disc…

Former professor (community college), father of three, two still paying tuition.

Here's my take:

Students should be ineligible for loans until they complete one semester of college. Colleges should make that semester a "boot camp": Varied, challenging, intellectual curriculum, forced work-together times (a study-hall "lab"), and so on. The problem I have is that a helluva lot of students who go to college right out of high school are there for the wrong reasons. They aren't applying themselves intellectually- any growth they get will be, if not despite their behaviors, at least accidental.

I don't want free tuition/subsidized loans/etc. in the current situation. And I totally believe that society should make an investment- hell I've dedicated my life to it- but it's a careful investment. I want those young adults to come away from college with real intellectual growth. At least they should be able to read and think critically.

And making college free in the USofA will make college costs increase (unless you think the US military spending is under control).

Having an onboarding boot camp, where you have to learn to study and take it seriously or you don't get to stay, would help the First Year Experience folks (who would run it), the professors (yay!), the students, the parents who would otherwise be throwing their money away, even high school teachers. It might make enrollment drop-at least initially- but it seems like that's an issue now anyway so it might be a good time for it.

Now, get the hell off my lawn!

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#619

Post by acbart » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 9:53 PM UTC

wincy wrote: post #109

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because many (most?) states have been cutting state funding for public universities for years, IIRC. (See, for example, https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/most-americans-dont-r... ). It wouldn't have been sensible to impose price caps while cutting funding at the same time.

If I’m a Republican legislator and I’m seeing my kids enroll at a state college where gender and queer studies classes are a requirement to get a computer science degree, I’m going to want to defund too. I remember my Republican high school peers arguing with our liberal debate coach, and he’d just laugh and say “wait until you go to college, then you’ll get it”. Sure enough, she went to Harvard Law and became a Demo…

Perhaps if the conservative voices would stop saying stupid stuff like this, they wouldn't be systematically excluded from the conversation. In my particular subfield of CS, there's a "self-identified conservative" who's been more or less utterly rejected from the community because, in addition to their bonkers political opinions, it turns out they also have bonkers scientific opinions. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that they reject the scientific process. It's hard to find that compatible with doing science. Perhaps I have many secret conservative colleagues in my field, but the only one I've seen is not someone who I would ever wish to collaborate with.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#620

Post by jonkho » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 9:53 PM UTC

maps wrote: post #223

jedberg wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? They only guarantee they get that it will be paid back is the fact that it can't be discharged. Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be disc…

> But barring shifting to a European model of college funding, I don't see the US allowing dischargeable loans, nor do I think they should, because the reality of it is that colleges won't reduce their rates nor increase their scholarships, they would just be completely out of reach of poor and middle class students. The reality is that the they should be out of reach to poor or middle class students TODAY. They are…

Here is an idea: let’s have colleges themselves act as the guarantor for a student loan. This way the incentives are aligned; if the colleges are poor judge of a students talent (and admit too many low performers), or having teaching standards are too weak will stand to lose money when a student cannot secure a job and repay their loans.