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U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

bloomberg.com

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Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#851

Post by stcredzero »

oblio wrote: post #824
stcredzero wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good thing, when a republic is constructed so that a minority still has a voice. One might perceive them as the "wrong" minority today, in the current context. In the future, they might well be the "correct" minority. (That said, I think Sweden of all places in the west, have had the best, most sane reaction to the pandemic.)

And do you think that in Sweden of all places, minorities don't have a voice? They have more of a voice, because they don't have a two party system. If you are American, please check out some European political systems. You'll find that politics in Europe are a lot more nuanced and minorities in general are much, much better represented.

And do you think that in Sweden of all places, minorities don't have a voice?

I don't know if you intended it that way, but the above feels like you're trying to put words in my mouth to that effect. No, I don't think I said that minorities are voiceless in Sweden.

They have more of a voice, because they don't have a two party system.

Right. Again, as Matt Easton says, "Context!" If the US were to go fully democratic, with our two parties, no electoral college, and everything done proportionally, things in the US would suck for constituencies smaller than 50%. Particularly with discourse being what it is in 2020.

However, if you know of a way to do away with the US two party system, I'm all ears.

Also, when I read your comment above, I tend to read it in my head as sounding angry and patronizing. Hopefully, you didn't mean it the way of, "What, you ignorant fool, do you not know...etc...?"

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#852

Post by stcredzero »

losteric wrote: post #797
stcredzero wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What minority are you even talking about Any of them. Some of them, I'm in. Some of them, I'll never be in. The principle is universal: A just society protects the minority. Any of them.

Any of them? Including groups that want to oppress others?

Including groups that want to oppress others?

Of course. Rights have to be universal, even for people with such desires. Otherwise, whomever has the power to adjudge what others are "actually" thinking have the power to remove people's human rights.

The dynamics where accusation is enough, guilt is assumed, and no proof is needed are often abused to have power over others. If there was ever a time when this should be obvious, it is 2020, present day.

In fact, all of the above is the whole point of the Bill of Rights and the Magna Carta.

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#853

Post by stcredzero »

sundaeofshock wrote: post #800
stcredzero wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What minority are you even talking about Any of them. Some of them, I'm in. Some of them, I'll never be in. The principle is universal: A just society protects the minority. Any of them.

It’s one thing to protect the minority from the majority; it’s another to allow the minority to constantly overrule the majority. At some point the US will come apart because of our current political dynamics.

it’s another to allow the minority to constantly overrule the majority

That's the whole point of protecting the minority. Otherwise, if the majority always wins, and the minority has to be satisfied with the crumbs left by the majority, the minority has effectively zero power. It's like writing an API. You know you're doing it right, when things mostly work, but there's someone, somewhere sorely dissatisfied with not getting their way.

In the words of one fictional British gentleman, "You don't have it. I don't have it. That's detente, comrade!"

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#854

Post by stcredzero »

fzeroracer wrote: post #809
stcredzero wrote: post #764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For every sign saying "I need to work to feed my family," you see 20 saying... Ask yourself this: Why is the media playing up those fringer crazies, and not covering the very poignant, socially relevant, and human angle of "I need to work to feed my family"? Then go and look up Manufacturing Consent . Here's how propaganda often happens in the West: Emotional manipulation is better than outright ham-handed Pravda-esq…

You realize everything what you say holds true on the opposite side of things, yes? All of the media coverage I've seen and read played up those protesters as valiant, the suffering workers of the world uniting to stop the government from destroying their career. Your argument that this is the result of a unified media doesn't exactly work, unless you're referring specifically to media you disagree with.

Your argument that this is the result of a unified media doesn't exactly work

Well, of course not. That's the classic trope of putting the predicate calculus version of "All" into another's mouth. However, depending on where you look, such an approach is quite predominant in the "mainstream." I don't have time to review all media myself, personally.

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#855

Post by stcredzero »

ryandrake wrote: post #774
stcredzero wrote: post #764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For every sign saying "I need to work to feed my family," you see 20 saying... Ask yourself this: Why is the media playing up those fringer crazies, and not covering the very poignant, socially relevant, and human angle of "I need to work to feed my family"? Then go and look up Manufacturing Consent . Here's how propaganda often happens in the West: Emotional manipulation is better than outright ham-handed Pravda-esq…

Complaints of media manipulation and conspiracy are also a longstanding, standard element of the fringe's message. When your message is strong and supportable, you want a camera and microphone pointed at you. When your message doesn't make any sense, then media attention is always painted as mean and biased. "Freedom" Every protest in the USA, no matter where it sits on the moral or political spectrums, tries to hitc…

Well, depending on one's viewpoint and level of shortsightedness, there's always, "F- Your Free Speech!"

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#856

Post by stcredzero »

coryfklein wrote: post #844
kilroy123 wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with you, but... How about don't vote in leaders that only care about helping out their rich buddies then? The Scandinavian countries have moved to pay all payrolls to keep people paid during all this madness, instead of just bailing out large debt holders.

Trump was elected on a populist , "drain the swamp" agenda. The public is notoriously bad at predicting which candidate will help the people, and which will "help out their rich buddies."

The public is notoriously bad at predicting which candidate will help the people, and which will "help out their rich buddies."

For the latter, you can get pretty close with this algorithm:

    WillHelpRichBuddies() {
        return true
    }

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#857

Post by ironmagma »

lisper wrote: post #581
baggy_trough wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly Democrats are just as corrupt and hostile to facts as Republicans (the set of denied facts will be different of course). Only a partisan would claim otherwise.

Can you give some examples?

Keystone XL, lack of real consequences for BP over the oil spill, just to name a couple.

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#858

Post by apazzolini »

CuriousSkeptic wrote: post #771
apazzolini wrote: post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I'm aware that's what he was referring to, but it's not the entirety of the tax burden in the US, and even people who pay nothing in income tax still pay taxes. This is precisely why a flat tax disproportionally impacts lower income people.

Unless it’s a flat tax on capital assets. I think it would be interesting to try out a model where _only_ capital assets are taxed. No sales tax, no income tax, no capital gains tax. It should dampen the effect of the rich getting richer only from rent collecting, while still making sure the market allocates capital to where it provides the most economic value (I.e can be turned into enough revenue to pay the tax in…

I agree with a wealth tax in principle, but it's not without many difficult implementation challenges. For example, someone's entire net worth could be held in art. How do you accurately gauge its value if it hasn't been sold in two decades?

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#859

Post by dcow »

stcredzero wrote: post #856
coryfklein wrote: post #844

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump was elected on a populist , "drain the swamp" agenda. The public is notoriously bad at predicting which candidate will help the people, and which will "help out their rich buddies."

The public is notoriously bad at predicting which candidate will help the people, and which will "help out their rich buddies." For the latter, you can get pretty close with this algorithm: WillHelpRichBuddies() { return true }

Great! So just pick people with benevolent rich buddies.

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#860

Post by makomk »

simonh wrote: post #822
mcphilip wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is anecdotal and it might come across as bitter and tonedeaf as someone who is not in a STEM job and cant see the bigger picture very well. Im a diesel engine tech who repairs those big trucks carrying food and shit tickets to grocery stores. the fact that ANY market is completely detached from whats actually happening to Americans is frustrating. Thanks for posting this comment. I know it sounds trite, but I’…

Very few rich people will actually get any richer. Most of them are heavily invested in stocks, which have plummeted, or owned or work for businesses which are being crushed. There are very, very few places to hide from what's going on. One possible exception, and it's quite a small group really, may have had a lot of money in cash and bonds. They may be able to do quite well by buying or investing in businesses at r…

Very few rich people will actually get any richer, but that doesn't mean that yellow journalists and political activists won't be able to convince the general public that they did by carefully starting their measurements at around the time the stock market was it its lowest, e.g.: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/24/billio...
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