Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education • Hacker News Board

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#171

Post by JadeNB » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:41 PM UTC

hnburnsy wrote: post #97

matchbok wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, sadly the demand is still there. It's so easy to get huge loans and as a result, there is no downward pressure on price. My tiny college had 5 full-time staff for "residence life", plus a dean of that department. Totally unnecessary.

My anctedot... My daughter at college has three academic advisors; a general advisor, honors advisor, and her chosen major advisor. Geeesh.

As a professor who is also a major advisor, I cost nothing, because I'm not paid separately to advise. On the other hand, given the corresponding emphasis on training and evaluation of advising (not much, although our department and college are working to get better at it), my advising is probably worth about what I'm paid for it.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#172

Post by MattGaiser » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:41 PM UTC

ilamont wrote: post #140

brewdad wrote: post #10

My kid will be making his college choice in the coming year. As such, he's getting mail from colleges pretty much every day. The mailer from Vanderbilt really struck me as to the wrongheaded thinking of university leaders. On one side was this amazing blurb: "Vanderbilt financial aid packages DO NOT INCLUDE LOANS. IT'S FREE MONEY....65% of Vanderbilt students received some type of FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE" Tell me why co…

We just went through this. The finalist schools -- a big midwest Catholic school and a large NE state university -- offered scholarships or grants between $16k and $21k per year with some caveats such as min 2.0 GPA at one and FAFSA qualifications staying roughly the same over the four year period. These scholarships/grants brought the per-year cost close to the University of Ottawa international rates, about $41k/ye…

> The brand-name private colleges around the Northeast US now have all-in sticker prices of $75k-80k. Financial aid in the form of grants or scholarships (not loans) would have to be $35k-40k to make these schools competitive on a cost basis with the examples given above.

Harvard's financial aid is such that if your income is under $150,000, the max you pay is 15K a year.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#173

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:42 PM UTC

mrguyorama wrote: post #152

gwd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

>This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math but have great aspirations for their child, is sat down and asked to sign a load of papers, not realizing that this will lock them into…

[deleted]

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#174

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:42 PM UTC

hnburnsy wrote: post #131

mywittyname wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to pick an economically viable major. There are lots of difficult fields to study that just don't pay well due to competition. People tend to think Science = STEM = Guaranteed Job, but that is not the case. Lots of sciences don't make much money, especially the ones driven by passion. Others are highly geographically dependent, so mining engineers might have a median salary of $80k after five years, but 80%…

One way in the US to help pick an economically viable major is to use the BLS Occupational Outlook... https://www.bls.gov/ooh/mobile/home.htm It gives estimates of salary and future demand for pretty much all occupations. Recommend this to your children to help them understand how their major selection could impact their future career.

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Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#175

Post by WrtCdEvrydy » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:45 PM UTC

brownbat wrote: post #128

gwd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, I thought so too. This always made me so angry. Last time I posted a rant about that here someone urged me to read the REPAYE Act, and it completely changed my mind. Under REPAYE, students get income based repayment, even down to $0 payments if you're anywhere near poverty level. After a certain number of years o…

Be aware REPAYE can be voided if your loan is resold (which you have no control over) and any missed payments or extra payments or any changes to your program (ie, if you apply for lower interest, your REPAYE is reset).... this has occured to people who go through the public service path.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#176

Post by kenjackson » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:46 PM UTC

Glyptodon wrote: post #110

fatnoah wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me how 15K+ in tuition a year is acceptable. My town currently spends about $12,635 per pupil for public schools. Other towns in the state spend over $20k. Compared to that, $15k tuition seems right in line.

I do think there's an argument to made that college should be cheaper (at least excluding housing and other secondary costs) than K-12 given that K-12 has a bunch of mandatory cost centers like special education (which is to say dealing with kids who destroy classrooms, abusive parents, etc.), that class size can be larger in college, that students in college (at least excluding community college) should be above the…

But the salary of the faculty is more expensive, at least on a per instructor basis. Although maybe you need fewer instructors. And facilities will cost more. You're not likely to have a nano-technology lab at your K-12 school.

I think university could be cheaper than it is today, but probably not much cheaper than K-12.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#177

Post by verall » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:46 PM UTC

0d9eooo wrote: post #165

twomoretime wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There are lots of difficult fields to study that just don't pay well due to competition That may be the case, but speaking as a recent young person, the vast majority of college students I met did no actual research regarding the employability of their majors. It's also a disservice to group soft and hard sciences together under STEM - because you end up with millions of children who can't hack it in math, but they…

It's more complicated, and a deeper problem than that. For example, I'm one of those former psych majors, and though those majors are full of people who aren't good at math, there's also a lot of them who know more computer science and math than some of the comp sci majors I've worked with. In fact, a common problem for psych majors and other students is to take the first couple of psych courses, think it's a breeze,…

I'd say a bigger problem isn't that undergraduate psych is easy, but rather just that _so many_ students that don't really know what they want to do take it, causing like a permanent glut of psych undergrads.

My major was also very popular, but about 1/3 students in computer engineering drop or switch majors, most after the first year. Fair or not weedouts and things to reduce the glut of undergrads. At least at my school the graduation rate for the psych school was way higher.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#178

Post by graeme » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:47 PM UTC

brownbat wrote: post #128

gwd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, I thought so too. This always made me so angry. Last time I posted a rant about that here someone urged me to read the REPAYE Act, and it completely changed my mind. Under REPAYE, students get income based repayment, even down to $0 payments if you're anywhere near poverty level. After a certain number of years o…

This still inflates the cost of university for everyone. Basically the govt is taxing society to funnel the money into student loans which are then ploughed into college facilities and administration staff.

It’s a massive misallocation of societal resources.

And I suspect many people earning a mediocre wage are still stuck repaying, and would have been happier had loans not existed and college have been forced not to be bloated.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#179

Post by jedberg » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:47 PM UTC

gwd wrote: post #113

nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan.

The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? They only guarantee they get that it will be paid back is the fact that it can't be discharged.

Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be discharged at bankruptcy.

That being said, I actually think that's a good thing, because it would force colleges to charge reasonable tuition rates and also offer scholarships if they want to get the best students.

But barring shifting to a European model of college funding, I don't see the US allowing dischargeable loans, nor do I think they should, because the reality of it is that colleges won't reduce their rates nor increase their scholarships, they would just be completely out of reach of poor and middle class students.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#180

Post by MattGaiser » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:49 PM UTC

tharne wrote: post #159

Any time you make money easily available for a certain good, whether through debt or direct subsidy, the cost of that good is going to increase proportional to the amount of money made available. This is what happened in the housing market and with college tuition. I'd be willing to bet that if you outlawed student loans (assuming that was possible), you'd see colleges finding all sorts of ways to cut costs without n…

You would probably end up with a two tiered system of online MOOCs for most and the normal experience for the elite.