YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine • Hacker News Board

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#541

Post by AbrahamParangi » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 6:18 AM UTC

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #498

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not clear that services should be both protected from liability as common carriers and permitted the power of the censor. Should phone companies decide who gets to make phone calls? Should they cut you off if you say things that are unpopular?

"But what YouTube is doing would clearly be bad if it was done by a totally different actor in a totally different context" simply doesn't work as a defense here. Yes, it would be bad if the phone company got to decide who made phone calls, but let's pick something closer to the actual context here: "Should comedy clubs get to decide who gets to perform on their stage? Should they stop booking you if you say things t…

I am not making any statement as to the legality of YouTube/Google/Alphabet's actions.

The effective position of YouTube is that they have responsibility over nothing you or I say but discretion over everything. How does that make sense? I believe that asymmetry is wrong.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#542

Post by ruckadub » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 6:18 AM UTC

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Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#543

Post by RonanTheGrey » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 6:19 AM UTC

zouhair wrote: post #525

RonanTheGrey wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be bought at the price of chains and slavery?" Chains and slavery being a bit overstated, but hey that's the quote. In the long term, those few lives matter less than the billions - trillions - uncountable quadrillions - who benefit from free, Liberal cultures (capital L, not lowercase). This is not because the ends justify the means; they do not -- it is because the freedom…

> freedom to choose, even your own death by Darwin, is a pillar of a free society People who don't want to stay home anymore are not a danger to themselves only, I could not care less if they die, I actually prefer if they do. But by not following distancing orders they are a danger to others. As of touting this as some kind of Freedom Fight is mostly a load of bullcrap. What you are missing in your perfect world is…

> People who don't want to stay home anymore are not a danger to themselves only, I could not care less if they die, I actually prefer if they do. But by not following distancing orders they are a danger to others.

So are all the people who get the flu every year. Oh by the way which yearly kills more than has been killed yet by COVID. Guess we should lock up all those war criminals!

> What you are missing in your perfect world

lol... gotta love HN commenters who live such cozy lives that they have absolutely no perspective. Check your privilege, is that the saying? THIS is what your "stay at home" order has caused: https://reportediario.com.mx/noticias/vallarta/filas-de-cien....

THIS is what I live around. THIS is what I see. Hundreds of thousands, millions, starving and dying, so that comfortable Americans and Europeans can posh off about how "go out and you'll kill people". You don't give a shit about people ACTUALLY suffering. Just the hypothetical ones your brain tells you about, but you don't even care about the same hypothetical ones who carry the flu.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#544

Post by shkkmo » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 6:23 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #510

shkkmo wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet if you look at the comment sections for this video, there isn't anyone tearing it to shreds. This isn't something I have been able to confidently form an opinion on; it's a hard topic. I think we will be strugging with how to balance bias, deliberate misinformation and freedom of speech for a long time. But I think at the very least, YouTube needed to put up prominent disclaimers and links to limit the harm that…

> Yet if you look at the comment sections for this video, there isn't anyone tearing it to shreds. I count several detailed criticisms of it just in this thread. Do none of them have a YouTube account? Why don't the people proposing to censor it post their own rebuttal? > I think at the very least, YouTube needed to put up prominent disclaimers and links to limit the harm that this content can cause. Which is totally…

> I count several detailed criticisms of it just in this thread. Do none of them have a YouTube account?

I did post a rebutal in some of the duplicates I found on YouTube. YouTube comments are not really a great platform for debate and the way their algorithm works tends pull videos like this into an echo chamber that avoids the exact types of critical discussion you are calling for.

So, given the (artificial) choice between leaving the video up as is and taking it down, I suspect that in this particular case, the practically beneficial choice for society (in the short term at least) is to take it down precisely because of how YouTube works as a platform and community.

> Which is totally different. Leaving the video up while posting a prominent link to a rebuttal isn't censorship, it's more speech.

Yes, I am a big fan of free speech. However it has become increasingly clear that simply making speech as free as possible in as many places as possible is not enough (by itself) to solve the problems of misinformation, partisanship and radicalization that we are facing as a society. We can't just dismiss those problems, so as advocates for free speech, we need to find non-censorship ways to help solve those problems.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#545

Post by stOneskull » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 6:29 AM UTC

zouhair wrote: post #476

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose you're right. Does it justify censorship? Fauci can defend himself, and the docs are welcome to express their opinions. What gives Google/YouTube the justification to silence them?

> Does it justify censorship? Yes, they are wrong and they will cause deaths if they are allowed to peddle more unsubstantiated bullshit. This is not a philosophical debate, people are literally dying.

Yet what they call 'authoritative news sources' like nbc, cnn, fox, etc are the biggest peddlers of bs of all, and they get front page all across the platform.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#546

Post by OniBait » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 6:29 AM UTC

knzhou wrote: post #235

busymom0 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before WHO was saying there's no human to human transmission and masks don't help. So anyone who created a video opposing that would get their video taken down. Later, WHO started claiming the exact opposite. Now anyone who created a video previously will also get taken down. How exactly do you propose deciding what's misinformation and what's not?

> WHO was saying there's no human to human transmission This is one of those completely false things that people only believe is true by repetition. Go back and actually read the full set of WHO statements in mid-January. They have a bunch of statements saying that nations should get prepared, one saying that specific studies haven’t yet found hard evidence for person-to-person transmission (because at that point mos…

"At this stage, there is no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission in the novel #coronavirus (2019-nC0V) outbreak in #Wuhan, #ChinaFlag of China. However, the Chinese authorities continue intensive surveillance and follow-up measures, including environmental investigations." https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1216397232427147264

"Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China🇨🇳." https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1217043229427761152

"WHO advises against the application of any travel or trade restrictions on China based on the information currently available on this event." https://www.who.int/csr/don/12-january-2020-novel-coronaviru...

"The Committee does not recommend any travel or trade restriction based on the current information available.

Countries must inform WHO about travel measures taken, as required by the IHR. Countries are cautioned against actions that promote stigma or discrimination, in line with the principles of Article 3 of the IHR." https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/30-01-2020-statement-on...

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#547

Post by threatofrain » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 6:32 AM UTC

cowholio4 wrote: post #309

Not only were they completely wrong with their numbers, they even were wrong in their assessment of Fauci. They said they “are actually seeing the patients, Dr Fauci hasn’t seen a patient in 20 years.” In 2015, Dr Fauci personally helped take care of an Ebola patient when most of the world was terrified of Ebola. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/03/why-nihs-anthony-fau...

> The American Academy of Emergency Medicine (AAEM) and the American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP) jointly and emphatically condemn the recent opinions released by Dr. Daniel Erickson and Dr. Artin Massihi. These reckless and untested musings do not speak for medical society and are inconsistent with current science and epidemiology regarding COVID-19.

https://www.aaem.org/resources/statements/joint-endorsed/phy...

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#548

Post by stOneskull » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 6:33 AM UTC

soamv wrote: post #308

kolanos wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you watch the video or are you just basing this on out of context quotes? What you're quoting was a brief anecdote about what those doctors were seeing on the ground. Their extrapolations are based on state-level aggregates in New York and California. Sample sizes of 300-650K patients.

I did watch it. Their extrapolations were wrong. You can't just multiply positivity rate found in a biased sample by the whole population. That's not a meaningful extrapolation. Then using that extrapolation to say the death rate is low is just building up the error even more. And then, comparing that to the flu and saying this isn't much worse, we're now well into the "this video is a potentially a public health haz…

No, you just debate it. A follow up video where there's a debate. Simple.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#549

Post by holler » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 6:33 AM UTC

programmarchy wrote: post #379

holler wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's inexcusably dumb. Even if that’s true, what does it have to do with banning the video and preventing the public from making their own decision? Right this moment I can go on youtube and look up a million rap videos that talk about guns, violence, murder, and more. I can look at videos that would lead me to harm myself in all sorts of ways if I didn’t have a brain. By picking and choosing like they’re doing,…

Come on. Rap videos are often grotesque but it’s entertainment, like a horror film. This video was more like yelling fire in a theater. I’m willing believe the doctors were sincere, but they were gravely wrong, and their misinformation was endangering the public. YouTube was correct to turn off the alarm they erroneously turned on. Granted, YouTube’s method of throwing up a standard “violation of community guidelines…

can you or anyone factually prove that they’re wrong? 99% of the internet and “experts” said HCQ is dangerous and ineffective, then it just came out that a leading group of ER docs say it’s effective in ~90% of cases.

The point is that even if they’re wrong, youtube and others are playing a dangerous Orwellian game and it’s going to harm their reputability in the end.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#550

Post by threatofrain » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 6:34 AM UTC

kolanos wrote: post #311

vannevar wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did watch the video. At about the 5-minute mark, they make a huge error in extrapolating the percent positive of tests to the general population (in California, 12% positive test rate). As many others have pointed out, that is an inexcusable error that leads them to an wildly erroneous conclusion about the mortality rate of COVID-19. Recent antibody tests in Santa Clara County and Los Angeles showed a rate around 2…

I'm not saying these doctors are correct in their statistical extrapolations. What I am saying is the Kern County anecdote being spread around to discredit them by people who haven't even seen the video are practicing in the disinformation that they accuse these doctors of perpetrating.

> The American Academy of Emergency Medicine (AAEM) and the American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP) jointly and emphatically condemn the recent opinions released by Dr. Daniel Erickson and Dr. Artin Massihi. These reckless and untested musings do not speak for medical society and are inconsistent with current science and epidemiology regarding COVID-19.

https://www.aaem.org/resources/statements/joint-endorsed/phy...