YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine • Hacker News Board

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#301

Post by klyrs » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 3:08 AM UTC

kerkeslager wrote: post #248

paulcole wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> America was built on the idea that I can have an absolutely stupid idea and that's my right. Was it though? First Amendment says: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances” Until YouTube…

It's certainly their right under ownership laws to censor on their platform. But just because it's your legal right to do something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. The question isn't "do social media platforms have the right to censor?". The question is, "given social media platforms have the legal right to censor, should they censor?". The bill of rights is a legal document, and it can only govern the actio…

Is spam free speech?

Are bookstores required to stock every book ever published?

Are fraud and defamation free speech?

Must newspapers post every classified ad submitted to them?

Is medical advice free speech?

Are government clerks required to serve verbally abusive clients?

No, no, no... there are plenty of examples where the right to free speech is found to have limits. Especially when that speech violates other freedoms.

You have the right to make videos and distribute them. You do not have the right to compel anybody to watch them, receive them or redistribute them. A platform such as youtube has the right to curate -- otherwise it would be a useless mass of SEO'd spam.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#302

Post by reedlaw » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 3:09 AM UTC

ghthor wrote: post #172

ceejayoz wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are the doctors in the video saying untruths or misrepresenting data? Yes, they are. https://www.dailynews.com/2020/04/28/california-doctors-with... > But public health experts were quick to debunk the doctors’ findings as misguided and riddled with statistical errors — and an example of the kind of misleading information they are forced to waste precious time disputing. > The doctors should never have assumed that…

I don't understand what's wrong with the data they presented. That article doesn't explain it, it just says it's wrong. There applications of data make perfect sense to me, that's how I'd use the data they presented. That article makes inaccurate statements like, "basically hyped a bunch of data and weren’t transparent about their methods" which is not true. There were 100% transparent about where there information w…

From the video around 4:40:

> 33,865 COVID cases out of a total of 280,900 total tested--that's 12% of Californians were positive for COVID.

This would only be true if those tested were randomly selected. Even in the most optimistic Santa Clara County study prevalence was estimated at under 5%. 1

1. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v...

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#303

Post by JPKab » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 3:12 AM UTC

milemi wrote: post #102

JPKab wrote: post #58

I completely disagree with most of what the doctors in the video are saying. However I really really don't like YouTube removing content like this.

I really really like it, just like I really really like what's his name being deplatformed. I like it even more that I can't readily remember his name, right, Alex Jones. YouTube has no duty to be a platform for Diamond and Silk in scrubs.

Censorship is a fickle friend. It's great, until you inevitably find that you hold a minority, unpopular opinion on an issue.

Your flippant remark indicates a lack of deep thinking on this issue, and once I googled Diamond and Silk, I realize that your probably a bit of a partisan as well.

The removal of Alex Jones didn't help anything. It just helped reinforce the paranoia he and his supporters have, which is that a vast conspiracy exists to silence him and others who believe his theories.

Those supporters now listen to him on whatever alternate platform (my brother in law is one of them) and it's even harder to talk to them now due to the Youtube cancellation.

You feel better emotionally because he's off Youtube. Feels like a victory for you, doesn't it? It's hollow.

My brother-in-law just listens even more rabidly, and he votes. Enjoy your false victory. Jones is stronger than ever now. Censorship doesn't work. It never will.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#304

Post by 0xff00ffee » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 3:13 AM UTC

The number of people in this thread defending the right to spread billionaire-funded lies, propaganda, and misinformation under the guise of free-speech is drop-dead astonishing. Like, I can see why civilization could fail on a massive scale if a critical mass of the population starts to believe the opposite of the truth, and declares war on those trying to explain.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#305

Post by dionian » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 3:13 AM UTC

forgot_my_pwd wrote: post #146

ceejayoz wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are the doctors in the video saying untruths or misrepresenting data? Yes, they are. https://www.dailynews.com/2020/04/28/california-doctors-with... > But public health experts were quick to debunk the doctors’ findings as misguided and riddled with statistical errors — and an example of the kind of misleading information they are forced to waste precious time disputing. > The doctors should never have assumed that…

Many studies across the world are showing infection rates for Covid-19 are far higher than official numbers indicate. These studies appear to support the spirit of their statements.

It doesn't matter. Why is YouTube policing speech? If anything, this will give "incorrect ideas" more attention than letting them be heard.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#306

Post by shkkmo » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 3:13 AM UTC

twomoretime wrote: post #255

ceejayoz wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are the doctors in the video saying untruths or misrepresenting data? Yes, they are. https://www.dailynews.com/2020/04/28/california-doctors-with... > But public health experts were quick to debunk the doctors’ findings as misguided and riddled with statistical errors — and an example of the kind of misleading information they are forced to waste precious time disputing. > The doctors should never have assumed that…

Why does the UW doctor's opinion supercede that of the doctors in the removed videos? The answer of course is ideology. These are two experts giving two different opinions based on different sets of similarly poor evidence. The fact that a doctor goes against consensus does not necessarily mean he's wrong and it certainly does not warrant censorship, all else considered. Youtube is making a dangerous mistake.

> The fact that a doctor goes against consensus does not necessarily mean he's wrong and it certainly does not warrant censorship, all else considered.

It's not the unpopularity of the views of the doctors in the video that makes them wrong, it is their complete misapplication of statistics. The analogy of “estimating the average height of Americans from the players on an NBA court.” is very apt.

It may not mean that they should be censored, but at a minimum they deserve to be called out and ridiculed.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#307

Post by remarkEon » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 3:14 AM UTC

gr33nman wrote: post #223

beaner wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really disagree with this. Sometimes the important thing to know is just that a debate is happening. Then the reader can view both sides and make up their own mind. More often than not, the supposed responsibility to "uncover the truth" results in journalists inserting their own bias.

I share your concern about journalists inserting their own bias. A good journalist would investigate the factuality of claims by all parties in a story, not just the ones they agree with. Of course, bias does happen even with the best intentions, and that is why it is a good idea to read multiple news sources with good journalistic ethics ( https://www.spj.org/ethicscode.asp ). Lazy “he said, she said” journalism, so…

>That is the sacred duty of a free press.

And this press has proven time and again to be in the aggregate incompetent in this duty. Perhaps it's the fault of the changing landscape, with media chasing clickbait and online ads all the time. I'm a lot more skeptical of journalists today than I would've been a few decades ago, and there's plenty of evidence that the game is up and the political class if fully aware of how these people are unable to do this job in a way that doesn't enable propaganda and disinformation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/obama-officia...

>“All these newspapers used to have foreign bureaus,” he said. “Now they don’t. They call us to explain to them what’s happening in Moscow and Cairo. Most of the outlets are reporting on world events from Washington. The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old, and their only reporting experience consists of being around political campaigns. That’s a sea change. They literally know nothing.”

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#308

Post by soamv » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 3:14 AM UTC

kolanos wrote: post #230

brlewis wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That article makes inaccurate statements like, "basically hyped a bunch of data and weren’t transparent about their methods" which is not true. There were 100% transparent about where there information was from and how they were presenting it. I can vouch for their transparency. The speed with which I was able to see that their statistical methods were totally wrong was almost entirely due to their transparency. Th…

Did you watch the video or are you just basing this on out of context quotes? What you're quoting was a brief anecdote about what those doctors were seeing on the ground. Their extrapolations are based on state-level aggregates in New York and California. Sample sizes of 300-650K patients.

I did watch it. Their extrapolations were wrong. You can't just multiply positivity rate found in a biased sample by the whole population. That's not a meaningful extrapolation. Then using that extrapolation to say the death rate is low is just building up the error even more.

And then, comparing that to the flu and saying this isn't much worse, we're now well into the "this video is a potentially a public health hazard" territory.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#309

Post by cowholio4 » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 3:15 AM UTC

Not only were they completely wrong with their numbers, they even were wrong in their assessment of Fauci. They said they “are actually seeing the patients, Dr Fauci hasn’t seen a patient in 20 years.”

In 2015, Dr Fauci personally helped take care of an Ebola patient when most of the world was terrified of Ebola.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/03/why-nihs-anthony-fau...

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#310

Post by irjustin » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 3:17 AM UTC

jpdb wrote: post #258

irjustin wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone is denying or minimizing a VERY REAL and VERY SERIOUS global pandemic Look, most people on HNews agree with you, myself included. That stupid speech and stupid acts are costing very real lives. But the whole point of this thread is that protected speech does cost lives as well. That we should be debating, identifying and responding to bad/poor speech. It should not be simply removed. > YouTube had a soci…

> Put a banner up. Identify it with Mr Yuck sticker. I would consider this a form of censorship as well, and I would absolutely support it. > That we should be debating, identifying and responding to bad/poor speech. It should not be simply removed. I suppose I could agree in this particular circumstance that YouTube having some sort of banner over this content would suffice, I think it's the same thing as just remov…

> I think you mixed your words up here.

Yea, you're right, but thanks for getting the spirit.

> Censorship that is used to silence legitimate opinions that do not cause harm to others is a terrible thing and shouldn't exist.

That's your belief because "legitimate opinions". What is "legitimate opinions"? That is the crux.

Your sense of justice is driving your opinions. Someone else's is going to be slightly different. Okay that's obvious, but the high level is how do you decide what is right/wrong? It's a spectrum, a very wide and diverse one. What's simply stupid vs outright dangerous?

> I'm ok with any censorship/curtailing of free speech that: results in a net-surplus of free speech, endangers others ("fire" in a crowded theater), or incites violence.

FWIW, that's a contradictory statement. You cannot have a net-surplus of free speech by censoring. They're mutually exclusive ideas. You can have a net-surplus of "good done" via censorship. But what is "good done"? More lives? More freedom?

All I'm trying to get you to see is that censorship is one of the most powerful tools that exist for a society. A concrete example is Singapore's fake news law.