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YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

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Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#241

Post by manfredo »

jaggederest wrote: post #85
manfredo wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are infections and death tolls in the countries with much less restrictive measures an order of magnitude higher?

Yes, actually. Here's an example, probably the best natural experiment we're going to see in this context. Five times more, depending on your idea of "order of magnitude". https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/28/europe/sweden-coronavirus-loc...

NPR reported that 1.3 million would have died without social isolation in the US. This is 20x higher than the latest estimate. On hacker news I've seen people claim figures ranging from 1-2 million, to 3-6 million on the more extreme end.

Even if we take Sweden's case at face value this is still 1/4 the multiplier that people seem to think it is. Furthermore, Sweden is pursuing a strategy of herd immunity: let people get infected so that the populace becomes immune. They should see a higher rise in deaths, but also a faster decline as the virus runs out of viable hosts. A tall, narrow spike versus a wide, shorter curve. The area under the final curve is what we're looking for.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#242

Post by luminadiffusion »

forgot_my_pwd wrote: post #88
gmfawcett wrote: post #47

This is lazy reporting. It's not wrong, but there's no insight here. No critical assessment of the claims made in the video nor the Youtube T&C, just a few clickbaity excerpts and some reaction comments. Compare with this excellent piece by the CBC on a somewhat similar viral video in Canada: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/u-of-r-biology-p...

But that misses the point. The very fact that a few people at Google/Youtube have the power to censor whomever they want for whatever reason they choose is a problem in itself. Are the doctors in the video saying untruths or misrepresenting data? I think what they said in the video was eminently reasonable. But perhaps I'm wrong. Luckily we have the freedom to publicly critique their claims - assuming our critiques a…

Your comment misses the point of why they did this.

These doctors were in no way qualified or licensed to provide the opinions they did and they had huge undisclosed conflicts of interest.

1. Their medical practice is an Urgent Care.

1a. They own said Urgent Care. They have a vested monetary interest in claiming these things so people start using them more.

2. They are not licensed to practice epidemiology - nor are they properly trained in Epidemiology.

3. They are not licensed to practice emergency medicine - nor are they properly trained in emergency medicine.

These guys misquoted the facts at every step and misled millions with their improper application of statistics. This viewpoint is harmful and incorrect.

This is telling everyone that “there is no fire” and to sit down and keep watching the movie in a theater that is on fire. They do not deserve a platform on which to spread these lies and misinformation.

Now, their medical licenses are in jeopardy. For the misinformation the presented, not the truths. If they understood statistics and still said the crap they did, the board is going to want to talk to them about gross negligence. If they didn’t understand statistics and still said what they did, the medical board is going to want to talk to them about practicing without a license.

These two idiots are going down for this. Good for YouTube. In this instance, this is disinformation, and they were correct.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#243

Post by James_Henry »

busymom0 wrote: post #154
James_Henry wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. These people own several urgent care clinics and are suffering financially. I don't understand how much they understand about how misleading they are being (they could be foolish enough to believe their own mistakes) but it is clear that they are suffering financially and are trying to figure out a way to stay afloat.

That's the exact opposite of what's happening: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fac...

No, urgent cares don't have patients on ventilators.

But yes, there are some very perverse incentives in medicine.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#244

Post by thatsenough »

cycomanic wrote: post #179
forgot_my_pwd wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that misses the point. The very fact that a few people at Google/Youtube have the power to censor whomever they want for whatever reason they choose is a problem in itself. Are the doctors in the video saying untruths or misrepresenting data? I think what they said in the video was eminently reasonable. But perhaps I'm wrong. Luckily we have the freedom to publicly critique their claims - assuming our critiques a…

In other news fox news is censoring anyone who does not agree with their Conservative narrative.

IMO, this is a matter of public health and should be treated as such (as much as some politicians want to cast this as a partisan issue for political gain).

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#245

Post by brlewis »

kolanos wrote: post #230
brlewis wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That article makes inaccurate statements like, "basically hyped a bunch of data and weren’t transparent about their methods" which is not true. There were 100% transparent about where there information was from and how they were presenting it. I can vouch for their transparency. The speed with which I was able to see that their statistical methods were totally wrong was almost entirely due to their transparency. Th…

Did you watch the video or are you just basing this on out of context quotes? What you're quoting was a brief anecdote about what those doctors were seeing on the ground. Their extrapolations are based on state-level aggregates in New York and California. Sample sizes of 300-650K patients.

I did not get the chance to see the video before it was taken down, but I got the content of their arguments here: http://www.tathasta.com/2020/04/watch-er-doctors-urge-reopen...

They use the same logic for Kern County, California, and New York. Their logic is, that if you test N people and find M positive cases, that in the population at large you'll have an infection rate of M/N. This would be true if the N tests were performed on random members of the population. But because the tests are only performed when there's reason to suspect infection, M/N is a higher infection rate than in the population at large. Their inflated number for total infected persons makes the death rate appear smaller.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#246

Post by axguscbklp »

saltedonion wrote: post #127
axguscbklp wrote: post #69

I wonder why Google's decision-makers decided to censor stuff that doesn't follow WHO guidelines. Is it because they actually care about the mass of the population? Is it because they want to minimize the economic damage caused by the crisis? Is it because they're scared to get sick themselves? Is it because they want to avoid possible legal liability? Is it due to political pressure on them? Is it because they want…

Because dominant media platforms have a huge crosshairs on their backs, with different groups criticizing they aren’t doing enough to remove misinformation, and at the same time, they are too heavy handed. The consensus is that the platforms have to do SOMETHING, because if not, it becomes a national security issue and regulation is going sweep through the industry. At the same time, the platforms can’t be seen as en…

That sounds pretty plausible to me as another explanation.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#247

Post by rauchp »

runawaybottle wrote: post #62

This edges a little close to state media. Of course it’s not the same, but if the guiding philosophy is ‘we cannot trust the public with certain information, for it’s own good’, then we’ve adopted whatever the hell they do in non-free countries. Very bad precedent, very Un-American. Edit: As an arrogant American, I forgot to consider that this might be a global Youtube policy.

Un-American? There's nothing more "American" than having the right to do whatever you want with your personal property. The free market answer here isn't forcing them to adhere to your tastes, it's to make or promote a competitor that can actually compete with YT.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#248

Post by kerkeslager »

paulcole wrote: post #145
irjustin wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's that youtube, reddit take on more of a public forum than TV, radio at least that was the feeling in the past. The idea that anyone can be a content creator is, it's supposed to be as neutral as possible. Let the world battle it out against itself. Once you start taking sides of opinions (as opposed to legal ones) then you become a content curator. For better or worse, America was built on the idea that I can hav…

> America was built on the idea that I can have an absolutely stupid idea and that's my right. Was it though? First Amendment says: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances” Until YouTube…

It's certainly their right under ownership laws to censor on their platform. But just because it's your legal right to do something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. The question isn't "do social media platforms have the right to censor?". The question is, "given social media platforms have the legal right to censor, should they censor?".

The bill of rights is a legal document, and it can only govern the actions of government. But I don't think that there's any debate that the first amendment came about because the founding fathers believed free speech was an inalienable human right. I don't think the founding fathers would say that inalienable rights are suddenly alienated because you put a corporation in charge of your communications platform.

Do you believe free speech is a human right? If so, then why do you care when it's violated by a government, but not care when it's violated by corporations who are arguably more powerful in the field of communication?

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#249

Post by irjustin »

jpdb wrote: post #202
irjustin wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's that youtube, reddit take on more of a public forum than TV, radio at least that was the feeling in the past. The idea that anyone can be a content creator is, it's supposed to be as neutral as possible. Let the world battle it out against itself. Once you start taking sides of opinions (as opposed to legal ones) then you become a content curator. For better or worse, America was built on the idea that I can hav…

> For better or worse, America was built on the idea that I can have an absolutely stupid idea and that's my right. > That's a core tenant of free speech I'd disagree heavily with this assessment based on these two points. The founding fathers drew much of their inspiration from Hobbes who wrote that liberty involved ceding some "sovereign power" (liberty) to a state so that we could be free to do things without worr…

> If someone is denying or minimizing a VERY REAL and VERY SERIOUS global pandemic

Look, most people on HNews agree with you, myself included. That stupid speech and stupid acts are costing very real lives.

But the whole point of this thread is that protected speech does cost lives as well. That we should be debating, identifying and responding to bad/poor speech. It should not be simply removed.

> YouTube had a social obligation to curtail their free speech.

Put a banner up. Identify it with Mr Yuck sticker. Don't remove it as if it never existed. That's dangerous, no?

If you don't believe it's dangerous, is it because the thing that's being censored is in your favor/belief/alignment?

Tomorrow, if Youtube said, "We'll remove all content that does not agree with the POTUS." That's only a few letters away from the WHO, right? POTUS is authority.

But that's insane. That's absurd.

That's what this debate is about. Censoring goes both ways.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#250

Post by wesammikhail »

kolanos wrote: post #208
ceejayoz wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand what's wrong with the data they presented. They took stats from a massively self-selecting population - people seeking out COVID-19 testing at their facilities - and extrapolated to the general public. That's inexcusably dumb. As the bit I quoted states, that's like "estimating the average height of Americans from the players on an NBA court".

Did you watch the video? That is not what they did. What you're describing is a brief anecdote they shared about what they were seeing on the ground. Their statistics are based on state level aggregates for New York and California.

People will always put their fingers in their ears and not read/watch the source because it is easier to bash someone than to actually do the work that may change your beliefs
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