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Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

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Re: Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

#181

Post by bhupy »

catach wrote: post #173
bhupy wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuinely would like to make sure I'm not missing something: what's the "key part of the article" that's missing from the Amazon press release?

The key part, from an Amazon warehouse worker perspective, is that they're not extending the unlimited unpaid time off option. Huge loss in scheduling flexibility.

From the press release:

“If any team members are unable or unwilling to work a scheduled shift, they can use unlimited unpaid time off through the month of April without penalty, and we are supportive if someone chooses to stay home.”

Re: Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

#182

Post by uoaei »

tomnipotent wrote: post #69
uoaei wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon has by now spent millions of man-hours on addressing COVID-19 -- meetings, designing splash banners, etc. They are a very big company who pays big money for top talent. Amazon is not the scrappy upstart it was 15 years ago. Let's hold them accountable according to what they are capable. Edit: it would seem obvious in retrospect that if most major governments have action plans in case of global pandemic, a glob…

I'm so tired of this holier-than-thou "they should know better/be better prepared" bullshit. Once-in-a-century black swan event - yeah, every company should definitely have plans for something like this! Moving massive resources in an effort like this is no small feat, and trying to treat it like it's as simple as signing people up to Slack is silly. It's amazing how people think operations like just magically manife…

Not every company. But maybe a global, near-universal online marketplace, logistics company, etc. has a 10-year plan.

Re: Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

#183

Post by uoaei »

looping__lui wrote: post #63
uoaei wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that the way the system is currently set up, it sustains itself by using poor and working class bodies as consumable parts which are replaced when they inevitably crack under the pressure. Yes if you get a good education and get a desk job you can work from home. That's obvious. What is less obvious is who, on average, has the means and access to get to that position.

Hey, I am German. Assembly line worker generally earn similar to university graduates. It does not matter whether you are employed or not: your kids will get the same quality of schooling (almost no private schools), you get the same healthcare treatment everybody else gets, your kids will go to university for free - if they can’t afford living expenses the government will give them a free loan for that, you get 6 we…

Amazon routinely involves themselves in social/political systems to exploit the circumstances to their benefit. See: their involvement in Seattle politics vs Kshama Sawant; the recent bidding war between cities for Amazon's HQ2 and all the tax benefits that were laid at their feet; the routine union-busting efforts including literally forcing some workers to attend an online course about why unions are bad... the list goes on. Amazon, Google, Facebook, and the holy church all have immense influence in American politics through the lobbyists and frothing evangelical base.

So yes, this is about corporations, and specifically corporatists aiding and abetting the private takeover of public life as we know it.

Re: Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

#184

Post by uoaei »

renewiltord wrote: post #77
uoaei wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon has by now spent millions of man-hours on addressing COVID-19 -- meetings, designing splash banners, etc. They are a very big company who pays big money for top talent. Amazon is not the scrappy upstart it was 15 years ago. Let's hold them accountable according to what they are capable. Edit: it would seem obvious in retrospect that if most major governments have action plans in case of global pandemic, a glob…

As someone reading through this thread, I have some feedback for you. This is partly to test the commonly held view that feedback is desired instead of blindly voting and partly to help you. I piped it through `base64` so that you can ignore it if you don't feel like it: WW91ciBjb21tZW50cyByZWFkIGxpa2UganVzdCBvdXRyYWdlLiBUaGlzIGlzIG9mIGxvdyBpbmZv cm1hdGlvbiB2YWx1ZSB0byBtZS4gVGhpcyBpcyB3aHkgSSB3aWxsIGRvd24tdm90ZSB5b3V…

Thanks. I read it. I'm curious where is the mental block that prevents people from seeing the point I'm trying to make. Am I brow-beating around the bush too much, neither clearly nor concisely?

Re: Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

#185

Post by greendude29 »

bhupy wrote: post #158
greendude29 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is ridiculous. I don't understand the defensiveness. The United States is a nation. It has a federal government and federal bodies which are responsible for preventing spread of disease. People can travel freely within these bounds without passports or visas or checkpoints. Of course states have their own rules, and this is good, and yes, some states are doing better than others, but why the fear of revealing th…

The European Union also has a federal government and federal bodies which pass policies. It has a directly elected lower house that represents the People with proportional representation[1], and an upper house that represents the Member States with equal representation[2], and an executive branch with a Chief Executive that signs bills into law[3]. People can travel freely within Member States without passports, visa…

:(

I'm still flabbergasted at the need to compare to the EU or European states.

No where in my original comments did I bring them up, or was thinking of them. Your snide metaphor also doesn't work since the EU does not override the nation-state model. The EU parliament only exerts some powers over EU nations. The Health department of Germany cannot made decisions on behalf of the health department of France. I understand you're going to compare this to two American states, but honestly, it doesn't work.

> This isn’t some pro-US propaganda, the only agenda here is an insistence on ensuring that we are comparing apples to apples.

Again, when did I compare anything to Europe? You brought up the comparison for no reason I can comprehend. Hence my questions about the defensiveness.

I don't think we're going to agree, so happy to leave this here.

Re: Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

#186

Post by whywhywhynot »

bhupy wrote: post #130
aaomidi wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By requiring others to do that for you and paying them pennies for what value they're providing. I'd agree with you if the company decided to not take profit during this time and paid the employees the same amount of value they produce.

> By requiring others to do that for you and paying them pennies for what value they're providing. The median wage of an Amazon Warehouse worker is about $60,000 / year, which is above the median wage in the US[1]. The 25th-percentile wage for the same worker is $53,000 — still higher than the median wage, and this is an entry level position that requires no college eduction. Amazon also provides 401(k) matching for…

The first number is so laughably far away from reality. Do you have any idea how many hours a week you would have to work to make $60k at $15/hr? Does the average warehouse worker make double the starting rate or work 70 hour weeks?

As someone who works in the industry I do agree however that they do an okay job taking care of their people compared to others. But nobody is going to write an article about how shit it is to work at a warehouse owned by a company no one has ever heard of. Amazon has actually done a lot for people at those places too though, if there is an amazon warehouse nearby starting at $15 an hour nobody is going to come work for you for barely above minimum wage anymore, it has definitely put some out competitive wage pressure.

Re: Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

#187

Post by viklove »

greendude29 wrote: post #151
viklove wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deaths is not a metric that can determine which stage of this pandemic we are in. Immunity is the figure you're looking for, which will not increase under a shelter-in-place order. Deaths are down, but will immediately shoot back up if the shelter-in-place is lifted. The only goal posts you should care about are herd immunity or vaccination. Nothing else matters when discussing how much longer this pandemic will last…

> Deaths is not a metric that can determine which stage of this pandemic we are in. Immunity is the figure you're looking for, which will not increase under a shelter-in-place order. Deaths are down, but will immediately shoot back up if the shelter-in-place is lifted. Absolutely not. If you believe enough information is known about herd-immunity in relation to Corona, you are dangerously misinformed. Please don't pl…

I'm spreading misinformation by saying deaths per week won't tell us what stage of the pandemic we're in?

> Number of deaths DO matter in relation to: 1. Human suffering (perhaps the most important metric) 2. Learning how we prevent further deaths (calculating hospital and materials dissemination needs)

Did I ever suggest otherwise? Literally all I said about "number of deaths" was that it does not tell us how close we are to the pandemic being over. You just brought up a bunch of other stuff to feel good about yourself.

I really did think you people were smarter though. Apparently you haven't even learned how to read something before you reply to it.

> If you believe enough information is known about herd-immunity in relation to Corona, you are dangerously misinformed.

Again, I never said anything about this. Please learn how to read. I'm not claiming to know how we reach the level of "herd immunity" we need to get out of this. I just said "herd immunity" or a vaccine would be the solution here. Am I wrong about that? Jesus fucking christ, the only thing HN does better than Reddit is self-righteousness and smug asshats.

Re: Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

#188

Post by vadym909 »

bhupy wrote: post #137
jonknee wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even crazier, they have already announced an additional 75,000 openings. Just nuts.

As of 2019, Amazon employed 798,000 employees, so we're looking at almost 1 million people, earning $15/hour at a minimum, with 401(k), health, vision, and dental benefits. Absolutely nuts.

I'd be really surprised if these were real- '401(k), health, vision, and dental benefits'. Anyone can offer 401k without matching, medical without contributing to the premium.

Re: Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

#189

Post by twomoretime »

greendude29 wrote: post #185
bhupy wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The European Union also has a federal government and federal bodies which pass policies. It has a directly elected lower house that represents the People with proportional representation[1], and an upper house that represents the Member States with equal representation[2], and an executive branch with a Chief Executive that signs bills into law[3]. People can travel freely within Member States without passports, visa…

:( I'm still flabbergasted at the need to compare to the EU or European states. No where in my original comments did I bring them up, or was thinking of them. Your snide metaphor also doesn't work since the EU does not override the nation-state model. The EU parliament only exerts some powers over EU nations. The Health department of Germany cannot made decisions on behalf of the health department of France. I unders…

I'm the one who brought up the EU. The purpose was as a size comparison. Look at the differences in covid "stage" between different EU states - that difference is primarily a function of geography - the time it takes for the virus to spread is about the same as the time it takes to isolate and suppress it.

Now consider that the US is substantially larger and more sparsely populated. That alone ensures that it doesn't make any more sense to say "US is at stage 1" than it does to say "EU is at stage one", because that fails to capture the range of different stages in different geographic regions (countries/states). That doesn't even begin to capture policy differences.

That was the sole reason I brought it up. Nothing defensive anywhere.

Re: Amazon asks workers sheltering at home to return or request leave

#190

Post by bhupy »

greendude29 wrote: post #185
bhupy wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The European Union also has a federal government and federal bodies which pass policies. It has a directly elected lower house that represents the People with proportional representation[1], and an upper house that represents the Member States with equal representation[2], and an executive branch with a Chief Executive that signs bills into law[3]. People can travel freely within Member States without passports, visa…

:( I'm still flabbergasted at the need to compare to the EU or European states. No where in my original comments did I bring them up, or was thinking of them. Your snide metaphor also doesn't work since the EU does not override the nation-state model. The EU parliament only exerts some powers over EU nations. The Health department of Germany cannot made decisions on behalf of the health department of France. I unders…

> Your snide metaphor

If you can’t take it, then don’t dish it out.

> The EU Parliament only exerts some powers over EU nations

The same holds true for the Federal government of the US. The 10th Amendment ensures this. Similar to the Supremacy Clause of the US Constitution, EU law overrides Member State law (E.g. GDPR).

> The Health Department of Germany cannot made decisions on behalf of the health department of France

Yes, the same way the Minnesota Department of Health cannot make decisions on behalf of the New York State Department of Health.

> I understand you’re going to compare this to two American states, but honestly, it doesn’t work

Saying “it doesn’t work” again and again doesn’t magically make it true, you need to provide actual concrete counterpoints.

The US is a Union of States. The Federal government does not have the authority to issue lockdowns or stay-at-home orders. The vast majority of US testing is being funded and administered by States, not the Federal government. In practice, this is indistinguishable from the EU.

The US contains 330 million people, and consists of 50 different states, each with their own Constitutions, legislatures, and their own responses to COVID.

The EU contains 500 million people, and consists of 27 different states, each with their own Constitutions and legislatures.

We can do this all day, but it’s pretty clear that your argument doesn’t have any legs.

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