Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#211

Post by Spivak » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:47 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #180

freepor wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are insurance companies who already sell trackers that plug into your car's OBD-2 port and have onboard hardware so that the insurance company sees your acceleration, handling, sudden braking, times you drive, miles you drive, etc. Right now, very safe and low risk drivers can use these companies to get discounted insurance. Eventually, every safe driver willing to install these trackers will do so for the lowe…

I know. So again here's the heart of my point: Even with the OBD-2 port, the data available to these apps is nothing compared to the data available to Tesla. Tesla can figure out how often you get close to bumping into something, exactly how far, how fast you were going, and what the lighting/weather conditions were like at the time. That data is orders of magnitude better than the stuff coming out of the app.

Sure, but what's stopping any other car manufacturer from buying and using the same sensor kits? Look, I get that you can't get the same data with a 3rd-party kit but if you're an insurance company you're gonna be working with car manufacturers anyway.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#212

Post by thoraway1010 » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:47 PM UTC

TimSchumann wrote: post #202

thoraway1010 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is totally false - the number of retailers who have testified before congress that they don't use seller data to compete against sellers - and then who go ahead and do just that is basically zero. Additionally, most other retailers actually BUY the third parties products and take the risk of promoting and selling it. On Amazon third parties take the inventory and many other risks and may have to pay amazon to pr…

This comment is based on a misreading of the very testimony you're referencing. As quoted in this CNBC article. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/16/amazon-tells-house-it-doesnt... "Nate Sutton, associate general counsel at Amazon, told lawmakers the company doesn’t tap data from individual third-party merchants to determine what new products to create." Of course they don't use data from individuals, they use all of the…

Amazon has promised individual sellers it would not use the data for their products to market against them (not individual buyers).

Despite the ludicrous lengths Amazon goes here to say there were multiple sellers and so this data was aggregate, we all understand (and amazon did too) that if you generate statistics such as median sale price per month / day etc where 99.95% of the data comes from one seller, you have the data from that seller.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#213

Post by toasterlovin » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:47 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #45

jadeddrag wrote: post #7

Is this any different than what other stores do with their own store brands?

Because it amounts to IP theft. It's one thing to see that unbleached toilet paper is selling well, and getting a supplier to sell you a store brand version. But it's completely different to see that a particular office stand is selling very well, determine that it has a 20% margin, and have someone build an identical product which you sell 5% margin. If you look at many Amazon Basics products, they are clear ripoffs…

A. Amazon doesn't know what seller margins are. They can't because they have no insight into what sellers pay for the products, only what the products sell for.

B. The main reason that products, in general, look alike is because they're all being produced at the same 3 factories in China. And for lots of products, there's no reason to deviate significantly from the house design that the factory offers.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#214

Post by bofadeez » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:48 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #72

jacobr1 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different problems. One is the regulation of which suppliers can distribute on a platform, deceptive advertising, right-to-repair, and similar consumer protection considerations. The other problem the article and parent comments are describing relates to the distributor/retailer creating or sourcing generic alternatives to the items sold by their existing suppliers and informing their decisions to do so based on the…

What's your evidence that we get better outcomes for consumers?

Giving consumers the same basket of goods at a lower cost just increases their real income, purchasing power, and overall standard of living. Amazon is effectively distributing billions of dollars of charity to those who need it the most. They lose $2 billion a quarter on retail. That's $2 billion per quarter in subsidies to consumers.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#215

Post by jonny_eh » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

archgoon wrote: post #172

dd36 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would Amazon not use sales data of comparable products to evaluate the launch of a new white label product?

Amazon agrees that what is being reported goes against their policies. '"However, we strictly prohibit our employees from using nonpublic, seller-specific data to determine which private label products to launch." Amazon said employees using such data to inform private-label decisions in the way the Journal described would violate its policies, and that the company has launched an internal investigation.'

> seller-specific data

Making decisions on the aggregate data doesn't violate this policy.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#216

Post by thoraway1010 » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

asperous wrote: post #201

thoraway1010 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is totally false - the number of retailers who have testified before congress that they don't use seller data to compete against sellers - and then who go ahead and do just that is basically zero. Additionally, most other retailers actually BUY the third parties products and take the risk of promoting and selling it. On Amazon third parties take the inventory and many other risks and may have to pay amazon to pr…

Major retailers buy and sell their product line data from neilson and others. I worked on a project with one of them so I know first hand. So the idea that they don't use seller data to market their own products has to be false.

And amazon sellers can sell their data (and do sometimes) as well. All that is fine.

Remember, for major retailers, a) THEY are the seller in most cases and b) in most cases they get mfg's to agree to whatever is going on in the agreement UPFRONT.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#217

Post by thoraway1010 » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

t0mas88 wrote: post #208

sokoloff wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That carefully phrased language could be technically accurate but still allow them to use seller-agnostic information about the market for batteries or speaker wire to decide to launch Amazon Basics batteries or speaker wire. (Which by the way, I’m totally fine with, because there’s no reasonable way to prove you’re not doing it and any brick-and-mortar retailer is almost surely doing it as well.)

It's also ethically fair game to base your decisions to launch a product on the amount of consumer interest the category gets. Everyone does that. What they promise not to do is take a look at seller specific data. That makes sense because it won't get them much extra compared to looking at categories, and the sellers ethically claim it's their data.

Actually - as the article described, they DO spend a lot of time looking at SPECIFIC seller data for unique products because it gives them LOTS extra that category details don't provide.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#218

Post by TimSchumann » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

thoraway1010 wrote: post #199

whoisjuan wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, let's be objective for a minute here. Do you really believe that Walmart, Target, Costco, Kroger, etc, are more ethical with their suppliers than Amazon? Let's not forget that many of these large retailers have moved to the practice of taking up to 90 days to pay their suppliers. 90 DAYS! That's three months before you see the money of the product you sold through their channels. And they do this because they…

I've done consulting for small business distributing into major stories. Other stores are very very UPFRONT on what they will do. Many make the small mfg sign an agreement that not only will the store have all the data, but the mfg will need to pay the STORE if they want the data. The difference here is that a) it is all upfront and b) the mfg can make an informed decision - is this worth it. If you need store / day…

> The difference here is that a) it is all upfront and b) the mfg can make an informed decision - is this worth it.

You sign the same deal when you sell on Amazon, probably even signing away more rights. I'm not sure I haven't read the full EULA when you sign up to sell.

> Amazon as a seller you can't plan as well - their alog or someone else paying for promo could cut your demand in half overnight.

This is about the only thing you've said I agree with. But it's not due to lack of data, it's due to barrier to entry with retail sales you have less competition. Right for the wrong reason here.

> Additionally retail stores actually drive demand / discover ability when they purchase your product in a way amazon often does not.

Amazon drives way WAY more discoverability than any retailer.

Pretty much your entire argument contradicts real world experience, common sense, and actual reality from what I know of the situation. I can tell you for a fact your assertion that 'Amazon doesn't do this' everything you're saying is 100% false.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#219

Post by mtnGoat » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

so did a lot of retailers. Walmart, Target, REI, every major grocery chain, etc. have all done it. IMHO, this is just business as usual, not sure why it's worth pointing out that Amazon did it when others have been doing the same for years.

Direct to Consumer is the way of the future, only way to protect your brand, sales numbers, and other proprietary infos.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#220

Post by jonny_eh » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #128

whoisjuan wrote: post #17

Stating the obvious I guess. All retailers do this and create their own white-label brands to squeeze profit from well-performing categories. Target, for instance, is very upfront about it and they have like a gazillion white-label brands that compete in hundreds of categories, which makes it very gray for the customer. Does anyone really think that any retailer launches a competing product in a category without look…

Does anyone really think that any retailer launches a competing product in a category without looking at all their supplier data? So, if cars are inevitably becoming computers with wheels, what's going to happen to insurance companies? The major weapon of underwriting is data, and a company like Tesla is going to have a huge advantage in data over external insurance companies. Is it really a societal good for big com…

The difference is aggregate vs specific data. If insurance companies use the cars' data to change their policies in aggregate, there's no problem. Meaning, if they discover that cars of a particular brand have more accidents, they can raise premiums on owners of that brand of car. On the other hand, determining that YOU drive really fast, should NOT trigger a higher premium.