Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#41

Post by AlanSE » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 3:32 PM UTC

delfinom wrote: post #16

TheKarateKid wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Amazon sellers only sell on Amazon, or have a large majority of their business sales there. This is equivalent to having insight to almost your entire business. Most brands at Walmart and other stores are sold many other places.

But this is the sellers choice. They could find other online retail channels.

Which goes back to the buyer problem, that they don't consider other channels. Then you get hostile co-development of browser extensions for cross-channel price comparison, and life in the jungle continues on as such...

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#42

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 3:32 PM UTC

sct202 wrote: post #21

Operyl wrote: post #5

I thought this was common knowledge. Don’t the chains like Walmart do the exact same things?

It's a little bit different because Amazon claims to be a marketplace at the same time as curating its own specific product offering. It would be kind of like if a mall required all transactions from independent stores in the mall to go thru the malls servers and then the mall started its own product lines to sell based on that data.

Walmart has had their own marketplace for a while. For example, I can order a HP DL360 Gen10 from a third-party seller on Walmart's site right now.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#43

Post by a_wild_dandan » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 3:33 PM UTC

tcarn wrote: post #14

Amazon makes life so hard for their suppliers it doesn't even surprise me. I once shipped a box of 10 laptops to sell on FBA (retail value ~$10k) and UPS showed the box as delivered, Amazon checked in the units and showed them available for sale on the website. Then 24 hours later all of them got removed saying I sent the inaccurate quantity in the box and none where now available for sale. The laptops disappeared an…

Subreddits tend to wildly misrepresent reality due to survivorship bias. People generally don't post or noodle through such communities when things are going well. That's not to say there isn't a significant supplier issue -- just be aware of the company you keep. I often forget to be critical of the bubbles I inhabit.

In any case, I do wonder if Amazon's treatment of folk like you would improve considerably if Amazon had competition. It seems they can push you around because there are no consequences to pay.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#44

Post by timdev2 » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 3:34 PM UTC

graeme wrote: post #10

sharemywin wrote: post #3

why marketplaces are able to compete with their sellers is beyond me.

Every retail store does this.

Many retail stores do this to their vendors. Amazon does it to it's "sellers", which are really just a category of "customers". As an amazon seller, you pay for the privilege of selling through their platform.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#45

Post by mywittyname » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 3:35 PM UTC

jadeddrag wrote: post #7

Is this any different than what other stores do with their own store brands?

Because it amounts to IP theft.

It's one thing to see that unbleached toilet paper is selling well, and getting a supplier to sell you a store brand version. But it's completely different to see that a particular office stand is selling very well, determine that it has a 20% margin, and have someone build an identical product which you sell 5% margin.

If you look at many Amazon Basics products, they are clear ripoffs of existing products. To the point where they are indistinguishable from the images. I was looking for a Lodge braisier just yesterday and saw that AB produced an identical product, down to the unique blue color Lodge uses in their enamel.

I guess you could go through the trouble of suing Amazon, assuming you had the resources. But then you'd be booted from the platform and they'd still be selling your knockoffs for years.

I think it's fine if Amazon sees that cast iron cookware is selling well and decides to enter that market. What's not fine is to blatantly steal the design of the best selling product in a category, then make your ripoff more visible on your site. At least make an attempt to differentiate the product.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#46

Post by yesplorer » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 3:35 PM UTC

Is there any Business to Consumer intermediary/platform that doesn't do this?

All big retailers (Walmart, Costco, etc) Apple Google Amazon.

Once you sell or distribute through a marketplace where they also sell or offer products to the same audience, expect the best ideas to be copied by the platform owners.

That's one of the downside retailers have to deal with.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#47

Post by tingol » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 3:36 PM UTC

johnmarcus wrote: post #40

MichaelApproved wrote: post #25

The solution isn't hoping the free market would solve this with a competing platform. The solution is to create regulations & laws that prevent this behavior. You're either a platform/retailer or you're a manufacturer. You don't get to be both because we see the perverse incentive that happens when it's allowed.

that solves the problem for suppliers, but creates one for consumers with lower competition. Less competition, higher prices. *just noticed I was down voted, likely by MichaelApproved because he has 7500 Karma and I only have 156. I'm starting to really hate contributing to HackerNews discussions because it's fully of a bunch of bullies who pound on your karma if you don't agree with their viewpoints. Bring on the do…

How? Everyone else can compete...

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#48

Post by annoyingnoob » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 3:36 PM UTC

ses1984 wrote: post #31

MichaelApproved wrote: post #25

The solution isn't hoping the free market would solve this with a competing platform. The solution is to create regulations & laws that prevent this behavior. You're either a platform/retailer or you're a manufacturer. You don't get to be both because we see the perverse incentive that happens when it's allowed.

In this case it's shitty to be a supplier but isn't this great for the consumer?

No, this is not great for the consumer. It lowers the bar for everyone. What I find mostly on Amazon in the past year or so is cheaper imported versions of decent products. The decent products are hard to find or I have to look outside of Amazon. They've pushed out the quality and replaced it with higher profit junk.

Its kind of the same thing with Home Depot. I used to be able to buy quality hardware from a local store. Now all I have is Home Depot and they sell mostly imported junk hardware. I have to go somewhere like McMaster-Carr now for quality hardware. Home Depot has not been good for me, Home Depot has only been good for itself.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#49

Post by MichaelApproved » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 3:37 PM UTC

ses1984 wrote: post #31

MichaelApproved wrote: post #25

The solution isn't hoping the free market would solve this with a competing platform. The solution is to create regulations & laws that prevent this behavior. You're either a platform/retailer or you're a manufacturer. You don't get to be both because we see the perverse incentive that happens when it's allowed.

In this case it's shitty to be a supplier but isn't this great for the consumer?

In the short term it creates competition and lower priced products.

In the long term, Amazon undercuts suppliers who have to exit the market. That reduces competition and allows Amazon to charge more.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#50

Post by acwan93 » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 3:38 PM UTC

Tiktaalik wrote: post #33

The key difference between what Amazon does and Costco/Walmart etc does, is that regular retail takes the risk of buying the product to resell, prior to gathering data and considering whether to clone it. Amazon is able to snoop on all the sales data without any risk.

We sell an ERP catered to distributors and many do sell on Amazon. I’ve always wondered why on earth they would continue to sell on a platform that’s constantly gathering their selling data, or even inventory if they’re going FBA, and eventually try to undercut them if their products sell well.

Their response is usually “I’m making enough money now, why worry about later?” or “our product category is too niche for Amazon to enter.” It seems like that kind of reasoning makes sense for traditional retailers like Costco/Walmart/Macy’s etc., but not Amazon where Amazon virtually has no risk in listing a product.