Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#201

Post by asperous » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:41 PM UTC

thoraway1010 wrote: post #123

whoisjuan wrote: post #17

Stating the obvious I guess. All retailers do this and create their own white-label brands to squeeze profit from well-performing categories. Target, for instance, is very upfront about it and they have like a gazillion white-label brands that compete in hundreds of categories, which makes it very gray for the customer. Does anyone really think that any retailer launches a competing product in a category without look…

This is totally false - the number of retailers who have testified before congress that they don't use seller data to compete against sellers - and then who go ahead and do just that is basically zero. Additionally, most other retailers actually BUY the third parties products and take the risk of promoting and selling it. On Amazon third parties take the inventory and many other risks and may have to pay amazon to pr…

Major retailers buy and sell their product line data from neilson and others. I worked on a project with one of them so I know first hand. So the idea that they don't use seller data to market their own products has to be false.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#202

Post by TimSchumann » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:42 PM UTC

thoraway1010 wrote: post #123

whoisjuan wrote: post #17

Stating the obvious I guess. All retailers do this and create their own white-label brands to squeeze profit from well-performing categories. Target, for instance, is very upfront about it and they have like a gazillion white-label brands that compete in hundreds of categories, which makes it very gray for the customer. Does anyone really think that any retailer launches a competing product in a category without look…

This is totally false - the number of retailers who have testified before congress that they don't use seller data to compete against sellers - and then who go ahead and do just that is basically zero. Additionally, most other retailers actually BUY the third parties products and take the risk of promoting and selling it. On Amazon third parties take the inventory and many other risks and may have to pay amazon to pr…

This comment is based on a misreading of the very testimony you're referencing. As quoted in this CNBC article.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/16/amazon-tells-house-it-doesnt...

"Nate Sutton, associate general counsel at Amazon, told lawmakers the company doesn’t tap data from individual third-party merchants to determine what new products to create."

Of course they don't use data from individuals, they use all of the data, in aggregate, from everyone including themselves.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#203

Post by jader201 » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:42 PM UTC

dunkelheit wrote: post #84

Wow, lots of comments stating that it was common knowledge, but some fact doesn't become common knowledge simply because everyone knows it. Everyone should also know that everyone knows it and know that everyone knows that etc. which only becomes true after the article is published. The situation is materially different - this is illustrated e.g. by the famous 'island with a blue eyed population' puzzle: https://en.w…

> Wow, lots of comments stating that it was common knowledge, but some fact doesn't become common knowledge simply because everyone knows it.

Common knowledge: something that many or most people know.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/common%20knowledg...

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#204

Post by toasterlovin » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:42 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #13

Based on how much Amazon will grow during this pandemic, I wouldn’t be surprised if they are cut up by government to reduce their power to destroy any competitor.

Amazon is nowhere near having a monopoly on retail.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#205

Post by thoraway1010 » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:43 PM UTC

davidgh wrote: post #191

thoraway1010 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is totally false - the number of retailers who have testified before congress that they don't use seller data to compete against sellers - and then who go ahead and do just that is basically zero. Additionally, most other retailers actually BUY the third parties products and take the risk of promoting and selling it. On Amazon third parties take the inventory and many other risks and may have to pay amazon to pr…

> This is totally false - the number of retailers who have testified before congress that they don't use seller data to compete against sellers - and then who go ahead and do just that is basically zero. I can't understand this at all. Retailers create in-house brands all the time. Do they somehow make decisions of which products to create in a black box? How would they even do that? If you go into the Walmart pharma…

Sellers at walmart

a) actually sell their product to walmart, even the branded product is owned, priced and managed by WALMART. So there is much less SELLER specific data to datamine.

b) sellers to walmart AGREE that the data on products priced, sold, and promoted by walmart (even branded one) belongs to walmart, and in many cases the seller has to pay extra if they want day/store level detail on sales. So in most cases it is a very upfront relationship, and walmart takes a lot more risk in pricing, promoting etc.

Here Amazon has enticed sellers by reassuring them that in CONTRAST to target, Amazon will NOT use the data they provide amazon to market against them AND sellers give amazon a lot more "seller" data because the sellers are often doing their own price management etc etc.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#206

Post by toasterlovin » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

acwan93 wrote: post #60

Sometimes I wonder if Shopify’s long-term plan is to do something like this. It's probably the leading direct-to-consumer platform out there right now, it’s touted sometimes as the anti-Amazon. The leading D2C brands I’ve seen are on there (Allbirds, Atoms, Untuckit) as well as random drop shippers. Shopify is also expanding into a fulfillment network too: https://www.shopify.com/fulfillment

I think they want to do something like this. The problem is that Shopify has zero traction with consumers. Until they solve the problem of getting consumers to search for products on their platform, they'll have no success. That's a tall mountain to climb.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#207

Post by maxwell » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #111

beagle3 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not illegal to have a monopoly; but it is illegal to use a monopoly you have in one area to get an unfair advantage in another. Amazon may or may not legally be a retail monopoly - I do not know the answer. But your question can be rephrased for any monopoly and the answer would be “monopolies should be punished for leveraging their monopoly power in other markets, because that ruins the market for everyone els…

> It is not illegal to have a monopoly; but it is illegal to use a monopoly you have in one area to get an unfair advantage in another. This is a very common misconception in the United States. It’s how a lot of defenders of antitrust law want antitrust law to work, but it is not how antitrust law does work. This Supreme Court case explicitly establishes that antitrust laws can be used against companies which obtain…

Antitrust law in the U.S. is currently based on the dubious "consumer welfare standard".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Antitrust_Paradox

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#208

Post by t0mas88 » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:46 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #187

archgoon wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon agrees that what is being reported goes against their policies. '"However, we strictly prohibit our employees from using nonpublic, seller-specific data to determine which private label products to launch." Amazon said employees using such data to inform private-label decisions in the way the Journal described would violate its policies, and that the company has launched an internal investigation.'

That carefully phrased language could be technically accurate but still allow them to use seller-agnostic information about the market for batteries or speaker wire to decide to launch Amazon Basics batteries or speaker wire. (Which by the way, I’m totally fine with, because there’s no reasonable way to prove you’re not doing it and any brick-and-mortar retailer is almost surely doing it as well.)

It's also ethically fair game to base your decisions to launch a product on the amount of consumer interest the category gets. Everyone does that.

What they promise not to do is take a look at seller specific data. That makes sense because it won't get them much extra compared to looking at categories, and the sellers ethically claim it's their data.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#209

Post by LoSboccacc » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:46 PM UTC

TimSchumann wrote: post #202

thoraway1010 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is totally false - the number of retailers who have testified before congress that they don't use seller data to compete against sellers - and then who go ahead and do just that is basically zero. Additionally, most other retailers actually BUY the third parties products and take the risk of promoting and selling it. On Amazon third parties take the inventory and many other risks and may have to pay amazon to pr…

This comment is based on a misreading of the very testimony you're referencing. As quoted in this CNBC article. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/16/amazon-tells-house-it-doesnt... "Nate Sutton, associate general counsel at Amazon, told lawmakers the company doesn’t tap data from individual third-party merchants to determine what new products to create." Of course they don't use data from individuals, they use all of the…

and they don't even have to use merchant sales data to determine what product to go after, just search click troughs are enough for that.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#210

Post by salawat » Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 4:47 PM UTC

so_tired wrote: post #15

Important line from the article > a practice at odds with the company’s stated policies... > .. as stated to congress

So lying to the Congress, eh? Great. Yet another example of how the system can't muster itself to dealing with actual threats to it's integrity.

Just get big enough, and you can lie in front of everyone without penalty it looks like.