Why Silicon Valley Immigrant Entrepreneurs Are Returning Home • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Silicon Valley Immigrant Entrepreneurs Are Returning Home

#61

Post by jmspring » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 12:18 AM UTC

edelweiss wrote: post #39

tokenadult wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally know people who have already moved out of the US to places like Singapore and India May I ask some follow-up questions to make sure I understand your point of view on this issue? Are you referring to people who are originally from Singapore or India, or to people from third countries who settle in Singapore or India rather than settling in the United States? How does the number of those persons compare t…

Why I left my country (USA)to become an immigrant in Vienna Austria. Indeed, why would anyone leave their home for new laws, different language, different foods, different social customs. The very same reason both my great grandfathers left Ireland to come to America, opportunity, and a better way of life! Our family are all US born citizens. I am a registered republican, highly educated, and have founded 2 successfu…

While not feeling as strongly about the state of the US as you, I am in a position to and will likely end up emigrating in the next few years to one of the countries you have mentioned. Health care, quality of life, etc. will all play into the decision.

As far as immigration policies in the US? I do think things are pretty f'd up. However, I don't think "throwing open the doors" is the actual option. We do need to encourage and readily "recruit" people that want to come here and start and build companies. The US can benefit (like it did in the past) by bringing the best and the brightest (as well as retaining those that come to our universities).

Where I differ, is I think we don't need every warm body coming here to fill tech jobs. There should be a focus on hiring (and if necessary training/continuing education) for those that are in need of jobs where there are openings (like in tech).

Just another view...

Re: Why Silicon Valley Immigrant Entrepreneurs Are Returning Home

#62

Post by jayliew » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 12:39 AM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #7

Yet another Vivek Wadhwa story with his same pet theme. Here is my question: is there any Vivek Wadhwa story on this issue in which he shows detailed figures for NET immigration flows into and out of the United States in comparison to countries like China and India? Or does he consistently do as I have seen him do here and in other stories, relating individual anecdotes and asserting the existence of a problem (too f…

I don't get why so many people are attacking Vivek. Step back from trying to eval() every single tiny detail to death. The bigger point here is that he is helping shine a light on a huuuuuge pain for immigrant founders in the US that hasn't gotten much attention (or a solution), all this while. Why is that a bad thing?

The DEA has been cracking down on druggies since forever, and it's been beating the same drum ever since. Such a boring agency, find a new pet theme already. People already know drugs are bad, right? If it's not for people like Vivek, who else is going to get the attention of someone who has the political power to change the laws? All you naysayers?

The old adage holds: It doesn't matter what you good do on this planet, there will always be small % of people who attack you no matter what.

Disclosure: I went through the painful F-1, then H-1B route, and now that I have my (conditional) green card, now life begins: I'm burning my savings building a startup in Silicon Valley (hello Hacker Dojo!)

p.s. apologies for the slightly inflammatory comment, I generally don't get myself into frickin' drama on the internets, but this is a topic that hits a very very very sore spot for me, and I couldn't just not say anything.

Re: Why Silicon Valley Immigrant Entrepreneurs Are Returning Home

#63

Post by tptacek » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 12:43 AM UTC

wheels wrote: post #57

tptacek wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is difficult for foreigners to start companies in the EU, even modulo the fact that it's somewhat difficult for residents to start companies in parts of the EU. I don't know anything about Asian immigration, but I know a very little bit about EU policies, and I don't think they're a competitive threat to us here.

Huh? This sounds totally wrong to me. The UK and Germany, the two strongest EU startup countries, both already have founders visas and there's nothing special about a foreigner owning shares in a Ltd or GmbH, the respective equivalents of a US incorporation. Also, in my experience, founding a UK Ltd is even easier than doing a US Inc if for no other reason than that you don't have to deal with both federal and state…

I have several degreed acquaintances who were ejected from the UK and EU. I'm married to someone who immigrated to Switzerland for work. The impression from people I know is that it's not particularly easy to move to Europe from the US.

I'm not sure what you mean by state / fed institutions, unless you mean that you have to pay both state and federal income tax (... but so does everyone, whether or not they own a company). When we set up Matasano, the only thing I remember us having to do with fedgov was getting an EIN.

Re: Why Silicon Valley Immigrant Entrepreneurs Are Returning Home

#64

Post by jayliew » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 12:47 AM UTC

jimbobimbo wrote: post #36

kulkarnic wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't about US vs. India immigration. It is about US immigration vs. the cost/effort of starting up a company in India (by an Indian citizen). No one's competing at this point to make it easier for "young people from African countries... to emigrate to those other countries". The low-hanging fruit is people of Indian/Chinese/whatever origin returning to their homeland and starting up the next big thing there, inst…

Ahem... Starting another groupon clone in India is not necessarily a next big thing.

The point is job creation. Not novelty of business model.

Re: Why Silicon Valley Immigrant Entrepreneurs Are Returning Home

#65

Post by tokenadult » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 12:49 AM UTC

wheels wrote: post #57

tptacek wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is difficult for foreigners to start companies in the EU, even modulo the fact that it's somewhat difficult for residents to start companies in parts of the EU. I don't know anything about Asian immigration, but I know a very little bit about EU policies, and I don't think they're a competitive threat to us here.

Huh? This sounds totally wrong to me. The UK and Germany, the two strongest EU startup countries, both already have founders visas and there's nothing special about a foreigner owning shares in a Ltd or GmbH, the respective equivalents of a US incorporation. Also, in my experience, founding a UK Ltd is even easier than doing a US Inc if for no other reason than that you don't have to deal with both federal and state…

The UK and Germany, the two strongest EU startup countries, both already have founders visas

Please tell us more. That's one of the reasons I asked the question I did up above, to find out more about what other countries are doing as a guide to what policy would be beneficial for the United States.

I did some Google searching, and one person who was responding to HN discussion of this issue on a blog mentioned the United Kingdom highly skilled worker visa,

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/workingintheuk/tier1/gener...

and from that page I found out about the United Kingdom entrepreneur visa

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/workingintheuk/tier1/entre...

and the United Kingdom investor visa.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/workingintheuk/tier1/inves...

But, what, exactly, is a United Kingdom founder visa?

I found a German government website about visas and browsed around, but what exactly is a German founder visa?

Please tell us more. I'd be delighted to hear from HNers who have actually made use of something just like the proposed founder visa for the United States to immigrate to some other country, if we have such people here.

Re: Why Silicon Valley Immigrant Entrepreneurs Are Returning Home

#66

Post by billswift » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 12:57 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #63

wheels wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? This sounds totally wrong to me. The UK and Germany, the two strongest EU startup countries, both already have founders visas and there's nothing special about a foreigner owning shares in a Ltd or GmbH, the respective equivalents of a US incorporation. Also, in my experience, founding a UK Ltd is even easier than doing a US Inc if for no other reason than that you don't have to deal with both federal and state…

I have several degreed acquaintances who were ejected from the UK and EU. I'm married to someone who immigrated to Switzerland for work. The impression from people I know is that it's not particularly easy to move to Europe from the US. I'm not sure what you mean by state / fed institutions, unless you mean that you have to pay both state and federal income tax (... but so does everyone, whether or not they own a com…

Incorporation in the US is done on a state level, not by the federal government; he was comparing incorporating in the US to the Ltd model in the UK.

Re: Why Silicon Valley Immigrant Entrepreneurs Are Returning Home

#67

Post by jayliew » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 1:06 AM UTC

ajays wrote: post #45

cooldeal wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I waited 11 years, if it makes you feel better. And yes, I do know the difference between then and now. And you know why it's worse now? Because the demand is much higher! So, despite the INS's dickitude and the so-called "broken" immigration policies, MORE people are wanting to come here. Are you saying that just because people faced hardship earlier, it shouldn't be made easier now? If anything, the numbers show t…

You seem to be arguing two orthogonal points here. On the one hand, you're saying that America's future will suffer dire consequences if the immigration system is not fixed. On the other hand, you're saying it is such a hardship that people have to go back when their visas expire, things are tough for immigrants, etc. Just step back a little and think rationally a little. If things are so bad, then why _are_ people t…

I'd like to call you out on something my gut tells me.

IMHO, you come across to me as someone who's bitter. You're bitter that it took you 11 years to get your green card, therefore all these other younger kids shouldn't have an easier time than you, because you paid your "dues" (from your perspective).

I disagree that immigration is worse now because of demand, I think it's largely to do with 9/11.

I think you're inherently misguided that a broken process should remain broken - just beause. I'm really disappointed with your sentiment, given that you yourself are an immigrant and you know how painful this process is. Wake up, and think of others - not just of yourself.

Good day.

Re: Why Silicon Valley Immigrant Entrepreneurs Are Returning Home

#68

Post by muzz » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 1:07 AM UTC

jayliew wrote: post #64

jimbobimbo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahem... Starting another groupon clone in India is not necessarily a next big thing.

The point is job creation. Not novelty of business model.

The Groupon-for-India would've hired 250 employees here?? I think it's more likely those jobs would've been created in India, either by SnapDeal or Groupon's India business operations, since that's where the market for that service is.

Re: Why Silicon Valley Immigrant Entrepreneurs Are Returning Home

#69

Post by muzz » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 1:50 AM UTC

kmfrk wrote: post #51

jimbobimbo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahem... Starting another groupon clone in India is not necessarily a next big thing.

Would this argument make sense if we had a "Google clone"? There's a market to be tapped, and they seem to be doing just that. One wonders why this is even possible, and if Groupon's dropped the ball in India. Regardless, they're running a business. What's not to like? Many Silicon Valley start-ups are incredibly derivative, but a flip is still a flip.

It would have made more sense if it was not a country-specific clone of anything, i.e. if it really was a "next big thing", not a regional adaptation of what's big in the U.S.

Re: Why Silicon Valley Immigrant Entrepreneurs Are Returning Home

#70

Post by wheels » Mon, Mar 07, 2011, 3:00 AM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #65

wheels wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? This sounds totally wrong to me. The UK and Germany, the two strongest EU startup countries, both already have founders visas and there's nothing special about a foreigner owning shares in a Ltd or GmbH, the respective equivalents of a US incorporation. Also, in my experience, founding a UK Ltd is even easier than doing a US Inc if for no other reason than that you don't have to deal with both federal and state…

The UK and Germany, the two strongest EU startup countries, both already have founders visas Please tell us more. That's one of the reasons I asked the question I did up above, to find out more about what other countries are doing as a guide to what policy would be beneficial for the United States. I did some Google searching, and one person who was responding to HN discussion of this issue on a blog mentioned the Un…

The entrepreneur visa was the one that I was referring to in the UK, which has similar requirements (actually lower – access to £200k in capital) as the proposed US founder's visa.

The German setup is similar, requiring the creation of at least 5 jobs and €250k in capital (though exceptions can be made, and I know some who have gotten them):

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http://www.gtai.com/...

I personally came over on the equivalent of an H1B, which was, compared to the US, incredibly easy to obtain. Basically I had a job offer, which I'd found while in Germany on a tourist visa in Germany, and took the letter from my employer along with a couple other filled out forms up to the Foreigner's Office (Ausländeramt), and was issued a two-year visa on the spot. I'll just emphasize that again: I was granted an H1B equivalent on the same day that I applied for it. There's a bit of a song and dance of them saying that they couldn't find an EU person for the job, but that's mostly a formality that's just a matter of the person writing the employment letter knowing how to write it. After 5 years I was eligible for permanent residence, and didn't start a company until after that. Though I had two different jobs in that time, which would have reset the counter for me in the US.

This isn't to say that people don't ever get kicked out or fail to get visas – I don't think there's a country in the world where it's a joy to deal with immigration officials, but certainly comparing my own experience to folks that I've known that have done equivalent things in the US makes what I've gone through seem like a walk in the park.