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Why Payments Are Hard, Even For Apple And Google

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Re: Why Payments Are Hard, Even For Apple And Google

#21
post #12

>In addition, you only get the bank’s confirmation of the payment 3-5 days (in the US) to 3 weeks (in some EU countries) after the payment attempt. I find it surprising that it's been 15 years since the commercialization of the Internet and (near) instant global data communication and it still takes banks 3-5 days to confirm payment (e.g., the time it takes to send a physical letter, coast-to-coast, via the USPS). Th…

The banks earn by investing the money while the money is "in transit", so they want to keep it there as long as possible. Not all banks do this. I can transfer money from my account to friends' accounts and they get the money in seconds.

Re: Why Payments Are Hard, Even For Apple And Google

#22
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's the most gorgeous eight-track player ever made. They have enough money to shift, so for their sake, I hope they shift soon. For my sake I hope they don't.

I'll bite ... what is it about their reader / product line that makes it equivalent to a "gorgeous eight-track"? I've thought the reader looked a bit fragile (and wouldn't hold up to heavy use), but that doesn't make it obsolete right out of the gate.

The next generation of payment technology will not be plastic card-based or involve a magnetic strip. They've created a really nice magnetic strip reader for plastic cards. It's kind of making the most amazing tape deck ever right before the mass distribution of Audio CD. Certainly it's an impressive feat of engineering and design, but it's not what I would pour my time into as an entrepreneur or my money into as an investor.

Personally I think my company's technology does make Square's obsolete right out of the gate. We just face a much different adoption hurdle because we replace the entire system from end to end.

Re: Why Payments Are Hard, Even For Apple And Google

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note: Mix of facts and speculation, take with grain of salt. Banks (and credit card companies) make a lot of money on the float, so it's against their natural incentives unless they can win more business as a result. I think they probably could, but it would take a coordinated roll-out of new products or acquisition/integration with an external company... which is difficult to do because of regulation. So you're in a…

I was a NACHA member for the better part of the past year so I've talked to many of the bankers, consultants and government-types involved with running the ACH network about this. It's not about the float. It's about the up-front investment in the standard, which millions of bank customers have already implemented. It's also about the risk of allowing instantaneous funds transfers; the current delay allows for at lea…

What's cute is that much of the time when I pay for something it's instantly charged to my card - my account balance reflects the deducted money, whether it's been actually moved out to the other account or not. But if a merchant gives me a credit/refund, it can take several days for that to show up - some places will say "two billing cycles" (although they have no idea how long my billing cycle is - I presume they mean their own internal cycles).

Money already seems to be moved somewhat instantly, but only ever out of my accounts.

Re: Why Payments Are Hard, Even For Apple And Google

#24
post #18
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I lived in Canada for three years, and had the impression that the electronic transfer capabilities of their banks surpassed what's available in the U.S. Perhaps this is due (in part) to the fragmentation of the banking system in the U.S.? In Canada there are essentially five banks that dominate the banking industry - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_(banks) . There is also more regulatory control of ba…

I remember payments in NZ being <1 min -- possibly seconds -- 10-15 years ago, as there was a single clearing-house for all EFT, nationally.

Same thing in The Netherlands, I can transfer money to my dad and it shows up almost instantly in his account.

Re: Why Payments Are Hard, Even For Apple And Google

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to (respectfully) take issue with your claim here, though I would happy to be proven wrong. I am clearly an early adopter (as pretty much 95% of people on HN likely are) when it comes to technology, particularly online technology. I routinely use paypal (+bump), buy almost everything online, haven't touched a paper book or newspaper in over two years. I even have a SquareUp dongle and use it from time to ti…

PayPal spent $300M learning how to deal with fraud[0]. This money is in terms of investment in development and outright monetary losses. The problem is you can't get a large number of users while you are also being taken apart by fraud. When dealing with payments, finding users is not your hardest problem. [0] Source: One of the investors in my company was involved fairly early in PayPal. We've had many conversations…

And all of this because the credit card model is fundamentally flawed. When buying something it's like sending the seller a trivially copyable key to your vault and letting him get the money he wants.

Re: Why Payments Are Hard, Even For Apple And Google

#26
post #12

>In addition, you only get the bank’s confirmation of the payment 3-5 days (in the US) to 3 weeks (in some EU countries) after the payment attempt. I find it surprising that it's been 15 years since the commercialization of the Internet and (near) instant global data communication and it still takes banks 3-5 days to confirm payment (e.g., the time it takes to send a physical letter, coast-to-coast, via the USPS). Th…

Agreed. Any software engineer knows it shouldn't take much more than 1 second, tops for a number to be incremented in one computer and decremented on another, separated across a network. Roughly speaking. Now add in fudge factor to account for a long and possibly unreliable network path (the Internet cloud, or similar private banking inter-network) and for the need to perform an atomic and 100% bulletproof and auditable transaction, and we can envision a scenario where the total latency between when the request is made and when the deal is done and put to bed as say 1 day, tops. And that's being very generous on implementation complexity assumptions. So when I hear things like 3-5 days, a week, 2 weeks, that's getting into insanity land. I smell either really old skool legacy systems in terms of process and hardware capabilities, or, something fishy like a sneaky way to allow the middle-men to earn "carry interest", or whatever, during that bloated time gap. Possibly also some government regulation which adds an enforced, artificial delay. But in terms of what are the actual minimum technical requirements to carry out that task, a few seconds would be generous, an hour would be padded and a day's wait would be bloated to hell. I could even say a day if each bank wanted to run all transaction requests as a single batch performed nightly, with human auditors being able to look at reports both the day before and after to "sanity check" results. But again, that should cause a 1 day delay at worst.

I am not a banking programmer, so take with grain of salt. Perhaps there's some evil super-complex-and-unavoidable issue at play, but I doubt it.

Re: Why Payments Are Hard, Even For Apple And Google

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a NACHA member for the better part of the past year so I've talked to many of the bankers, consultants and government-types involved with running the ACH network about this. It's not about the float. It's about the up-front investment in the standard, which millions of bank customers have already implemented. It's also about the risk of allowing instantaneous funds transfers; the current delay allows for at lea…

What's cute is that much of the time when I pay for something it's instantly charged to my card - my account balance reflects the deducted money, whether it's been actually moved out to the other account or not. But if a merchant gives me a credit/refund, it can take several days for that to show up - some places will say "two billing cycles" (although they have no idea how long my billing cycle is - I presume they m…

Bingo. This is why it smells like something fishy. Like the banks are trying to earn carry/float interest. And possibly the government is in bed with them, by adding some regulation to impose an artificial delay, to supposedly add safety/caution, but in reality to give the banks cover to earn more profit on this carry/float interest. This is my best thumbnail theory, anyway.

Re: Why Payments Are Hard, Even For Apple And Google

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a NACHA member for the better part of the past year so I've talked to many of the bankers, consultants and government-types involved with running the ACH network about this. It's not about the float. It's about the up-front investment in the standard, which millions of bank customers have already implemented. It's also about the risk of allowing instantaneous funds transfers; the current delay allows for at lea…

What's cute is that much of the time when I pay for something it's instantly charged to my card - my account balance reflects the deducted money, whether it's been actually moved out to the other account or not. But if a merchant gives me a credit/refund, it can take several days for that to show up - some places will say "two billing cycles" (although they have no idea how long my billing cycle is - I presume they m…

That's because the plastic card interchange works in real time and ACH does not. Even your charge cards have a delay, though. There's a difference between authorizing a purchase and capturing the funds. Once funds are captured there's still a batch settlement process that happens each day. So it's not really that big of a conspiracy; the players aren't even the same.

Re: Why Payments Are Hard, Even For Apple And Google

#30
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PayPal spent $300M learning how to deal with fraud[0]. This money is in terms of investment in development and outright monetary losses. The problem is you can't get a large number of users while you are also being taken apart by fraud. When dealing with payments, finding users is not your hardest problem. [0] Source: One of the investors in my company was involved fairly early in PayPal. We've had many conversations…

And all of this because the credit card model is fundamentally flawed. When buying something it's like sending the seller a trivially copyable key to your vault and letting him get the money he wants.

While I agree that credit cards could be a whole lot more secure (using the same token for identification and authentication is just plain stupid) fixing that still leaves you a long ways away from solving the fraud problem.

E-gold used username/password pairs and seemed to be making pretty good progress towards solving the 'using someone else's account' kind of fraud.

The kind of fraud that killed e-gold (and I think, the harder kind of fraud to solve) is "he sold me a defective whatsit" or "after I paid him, he never sent my thingamajig"

If you don't solve that harder problem, you quickly become known as the payment method of choice for criminals.

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